Dragon Forms/Biped Forms

[Lycaunoss]

I think the true test will be when Confectioner revamp happens. If it's possible to get all the conf forms from the trainer in the same was that the dragon lairshaper trainer sells then it will mean that as classes get revamped or looked at perhaps the forms will get moved to the trainers. Keep in mind that lairshaper is the first class that has been designed for the new skill system and I suspect that the design of how their forms are delivered is part of that.

For the record I belive that the way that it's currently working for dragons is the correct way. I believe it makes far more sense to purchase the forms from a trainer and even though the price was elevated I didn't feel cheated by the npc like I do when I buy stuff from the Vielo.

Also keep in mind that players could offset the vielo by selling expert forms that drop rather than pawning them. If npc's sell the forms for reduced price then there's little point in having them drop from mobs.

[LaughingOtter]

Not to derail another fine biped vs. dragon rant in the making, but...

There is a loot revamp coming up. There are going to be a lot of changes all around, and at this point, we have no clue what the form/tech drops are going to be like afterwards. Secondly, the Vielo were intended as a cash sink. Their prices are set insanly high in order for players to be able to sell the forms they loot.

Last night I spent my 375 silver and made a T4 Lunus cargo disk. It was somewhat more time consuming than making an obsidian Tarbash due to having multiple resources for the intermediate componants. Flat out, making biped cargo disks is just plain easier, but I'm also miner and alchemist. More work on character building, less work on manufacture. Dragons level one class, and pay for it in difficulty of manufacture.

They're never going to be the same, and never going to be equal. The best the game is going to offer is parity - that both bipeds and dragons are equally attractive based on the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Which brings us back to the issue of forms.

Master construction forms used to drop so often and have such low marketability that they were pawned as a matter of course. That's changed. Now master construction forms are tied to the current event. Most likely that will change. When the loot revamp is done - and, yeah, that might take a while - I expect the situation will change again from whatever it changes to in the mean time.

Instead of going back and forth about who has it easier, why not group up and go hunting? If a biped needs a master construction form, find a dragon buddy and go looking for blight hounds. Biped gets the trophies, dragon gets the hoard, both win, and so does the community.

[Aamer Khan]

It's not even an issue of ease. It's an issue of HOW we get the forms.

Take what Robins said for example.

To get the master fabric tapestry form, it takes 65s value of rank tokens to "purchase". Each rank token is worth 4s in value, so it will take 17 tokens to purchase that form. To get a rank token, you must complete a kill quest for 5 trophies off of the event mobs out at the harro outpost. Lets be liberal, and say you can get a trophy every 6 kills. So, 30 mobs later, ( and that's a long "later" due to the toughness of these mobs and the fact that you really need to group to kill them with any speed, not to mention that you must share the loot with your group mates, making it even take longer ) you have ONE rank token. humm... lets see 30 X 17 = 510 mobs killed to get a form that dragons can just BUY the equal of.

Does that seem fair to the players that don't play dragons? Is it fair to the players that are high level crafters but not high level adventurers? And is it fair for a dragon to get equal forms with NO fighting, while bipeds must fight 510 mobs PER form?

[Kwinn]

the forms costs are wrong IMO but the difference between dragons and bipeds are here to stay. Right, wrong or indifferent...one segment of player base is pampered, the other is not. We live with it, complain about it, hope for changes and in the end we are still here.

When looking at the differences, advantages if you will, of being biped or dragon only one really jumps right out at me...flight. This is a tremendous advantage and rightfully exclusive to dragons for two reasons. 1) Wings on most bipeds would look silly and on dryads they aren't big enough. 2) In battle a biped has to fight it out or run if the fight goes bad. As running is seldom a viable option it boils down to fight it out or die. Dragons have the lovely option of saying "cluck, cluck,cluck" at the first sign of trouble, hitting Q and flying away. That being said I wonder how many exercise that option? I know of a few that don't/won't and those have my respect. The rest? phbbbt....

Bottom line is this...differences exist everywhere, cost of items, ease of reaching lvl 100, abilities, skills, appearance, you name it Thank God for the differences. If we didnt have em, we'd be relegated to sitting around the campfire, holding hands, singing Kumbaya and dreaming of Peace, Love and Bong Water :/

[Zachyattacky]

If every one thinks dragons are so easy to have, and are so spoiled, why not just go make a dragon and be happy. I have read forums from months ago where people have been complaining about "over powered dragons." In them months they could have made there own dragons and been to the "over powered level 100" and spared us their complaints. So instead of complaining about how over powered dragons are why not just go make one your self so you dont have to wast your time complaining.
Then you can go buy all the forms you want for "cheap" and go make you lair and live happily ever after.

[Guaran]

LOL

what a **************** thing to argue about.

If you are stupid enough to buy a cargo disc formula from the Veilo, you deserved to be ripped off. Bipeds DO NOT need to buy those from the Vielo. It's the vielo setting a price cap more than anything, albiet an absurd one. Pray tell when was the last time someone ACTUALLY bought this formula from the vielo?????? Immediately after merge, maybe up thru the end of 2004. THAT WAS A LONG TIME AGO ( in MMO years )

You are comparing a system put in place by Dev's who aren't with the company any longer, vs what current dev's are doing. And BTW, dragon scale forms are still sold by the Vielo at equally rediculous prices. do we buy those there? hell no. ( again, i say a stupid thing to argue about)

Anyone who needs a biped cargo disc formula I'll sell you one for 10s. Until such time as they can be "quested" for.

With the widespread availability of those forms via drops, making this argument, and expecting dev's to immediately DROP EVERYTHING ELSE ( like CNF revamp, loot revamp, New trismius improvements, etc etc etc etc etc) is unreasonable, and would be bad for the game. Eventually I'm sure the dev's would love to make quests for those things, and perhaps they will.

Find a real cause to complain about, something worthy of attention.

[Robins]

The point is not buying the biped forms from vielo its that dragons can just buy so much cheaper from trainer. If its so easy for bipeds why not do the same for Dragon Tinkerer forms. Put them for gold each on vielo and let them drop. They will get cheap just like biped ones acording to all the dragons, so no big deal right? Then we can sell to dragons for 10s each.

[Guaran]

Well, then what about dragon scale forms? The Expert forms are not on the dragon crafter trainers either. Nor are expert spell forms.

There is now some expert forms, finally, NOT sold SOLELY by the vielo.

It's a good thing for everyone. It's the direction things are going.

If you want biped stuff, there's forms sold by Old Oaks for imperial tokens, basically the T5/T6 tokens.

It would just about be a waste of time to put quests in for old long ago started dropping forms, they are plentiful.

If you want them on the tinkerer trainer, I see nothing wrong with that, other than a continual flood of threads such as this one demanding the same thing be done for armor, spells, weapons, scales, blah blah blah.

Point is we got plenty of all of those forms now, just get rid of the Vielo altogether IMHO.

If you want to write a quest for the regular CD forms from those trainers, give it a try.

These flying disks are necessitated by the placement of some lairs. This argument really is lacking in merit IMHO. If the forms didn't drop, I'd be right there with you. That might very well be another major difference. These new flying cargo disk forms may not be dropping AT ALL. So while you have a choice of 10g for forms from the Vielo, or 10s from other players, or free if you hunt for them yourself, this quest/npc selling for 375s is all the dragons have.

[Aamer Khan]

Let's remove the veilo from the discussion and let me ask you a question then Guaran, are T6 laircrafting forms on a trainer and do they drop from mobs, or are they only available if you hunt T6 event mobs?

T6 or master forms do not drop for bipeds any longer, ( with the exception of a few of the cleansing forms that others claim to have looted off t6 mobs ) So the ONLY way a up and coming T6 crafter can get forms is to hunt mobs... Lots of mobs... Lots of very hard mobs.

If I'm not an accomplished adventurer, I'm just out of luck then right?

And that's ok?

Ok, well out of luck may be too much. If I can con, er, convince my friends to give me around 170 rank tokens, ( since I'm naot able to hunt them myself ) then your right, I can get all the forms to make it possible to do all T6 construction.

[Lycaunoss]

[quote=Aamer Khan]Let's remove the veilo from the discussion and let me ask you a question then Guaran, are T6 laircrafting forms on a trainer and do they drop from mobs, or are they only available if you hunt T6 event mobs?

quote]

I can answer this one Aamer. They do not drop. They used to but were removed from the loot tables and placed on the trainer.

[Rhyssa]

hmm why do you all talk about t5 or now even about t6 forms?

Maybe because that's where the disparity in price and ease of procurement exists?

lets talk about t1-4 and look if there is a problem too? ^^

There isn't, or else that problem would obviously also be under discussion.

Anyone who needs a biped cargo disc formula I'll sell you one for 10s.

That's great - if you're online and if you're reading mp at the time that I'm trying to buy the form.
If not, then my only option is to go to the vielo and pay 1g 725sil for the form.
A dragon's only option is to go to the trainer and pay 75silver for his form.

[Seranthor]

If every one thinks dragons are so easy to have, and are so spoiled, why not just go make a dragon and be happy. I have read forums from months ago where people have been complaining about "over powered dragons." In them months they could have made there own dragons and been to the "over powered level 100" and spared us their complaints. So instead of complaining about how over powered dragons are why not just go make one your self so you dont have to wast your time complaining.
Then you can go buy all the forms you want for "cheap" and go make you lair and live happily ever after.

Zachyattacky, with all due respect, many of us that ARE pointing out the vast disparity have L100 dragons in addition to our bipeds. So we are speaking from first hand experience. And the problem isn't overpowered dragons, its the incredible disparity. Lets ask would dragons be crying foul if THEY had to kill those 510 mobs to get each of their master forms? We know that answer already....

Let's remove the veilo from the discussion and let me ask you a question then Guaran, are T6 laircrafting forms on a trainer and do they drop from mobs, or are they only available if you hunt T6 event mobs?

I can answer this one Aamer. They do not drop. They used to but were removed from the loot tables and placed on the trainer.

Then thats where the T6 biped ones should be, ON the trainers... or the T6 dragon ones should ALSO be on the same NPC that the biped ones are...

[Zachyattacky]

*looks around* opps I guess I should have posted that on one of the other dragon complaint forums
I otta pay attention better.
My mistake, sorry

[Guaran]

Well, for the t5/t6 lairforms, it seems this school has been designed from the ground up with all sorts of differences...

With the boring-ness that is laircrafting (IMHO), if the forms had some major obstacle to being obtained, there wouldnt be much expert laircrafting happening, at all. There's TOO MANY intermediate steps, forms, etc for it to be feasible to leave the obtaining of such in methods used previously.

I'd (again) be right there with you on the OP's argument, if Biped construction required forms for boards, nails, glue, sheetrock, and plaster, just to do the "wood" portion. 2 forms per skill is all thats required. Be glad that biped construction is nothing like laircrafting.

[Rhyssa]

I'd (again) be right there with you on the OP's argument, if Biped construction required forms for boards, nails, glue, sheetrock, and plaster, just to do the "wood" portion. 2 forms per skill is all thats required. Be glad that biped construction is nothing like laircrafting.

The key words there are per skill. Biped construction requires 5 skills, each of which, as you pointed out requires 2 forms. That makes 10 forms altogether, one more than dragons need. And you want to add in 5 more forms just for the wood portion? And I presume 4 or 5 more for each of the other portions too? I suppose you'd like those to be priced the same as the rest of the biped construction forms too. That would bring the total cost for biped constructions forms up around the 30 gold mark.

Hell yeah, what a great idea. /sarcasm off

[Aamer Khan]

Guaran, I thought that concept was discussed and accepted already, that dragons have traded not having to level ( 7, because 5 const, and 2 gathering classes ) schools for more difficult construction.

Here is the issue and it's soultion in a very easy to swallow form...

Take T6 construction and crafting forms, and put them on the trainers, and price them on par with what T6 lairshaping forms sell for.

Maybe then there would be more T6 biped buildings around, assuming there are resources to gather from in game.

[Nalrach]

Not to trow more fire into this dragon versus byped war, but ...

YES!!! dragon are dragon and as such have got lot's of love from the devs and have most probably earn it.

I agree this isn't about vielo, but about the work it requires dragon or byped to do things. It is clearly in everyone mind currently the game is unbalance and the devs will have to speed-up some issue for the byped.

Like, the fact that the devs want to make crafting more hard for the byped (ie: seperate mining, quarring, from craft like psellcrafter & armorcrafter). like someone else mention, stop and look at the fact that dragon have only one adventure class (speciallized in two), only one craft school and only one construction school. It is clear in my mind that, the dragon schools will have to be split up to be fair to the biped, or some form of relaxation into the various school will have to be done if the devs goes with their plan. Altough I have to admit by making all resources for construction to be double combination to be quite a pain where the sun don't shine, as if it balance for the fact that on byped you need multiple class to complete a home. That for now I can't tell since I'm just starting lairshaping.

If you think that the war about; form cost & means to acquire them , or the cost of dragonlair (a good one is plus or minus 550s versus in golds for pyped) is bad now ... your up for a shocking session.

On the other hand, the devs are starting to offer byped new starter quest in Newt Trimus for byped class and personnally I would love to have the time and patience to try them all. When I started my draggy I taugth the hold hands on training for noobs to restrain my liberty a bit too much, but it may save the game by helping new players to have a good start.

My guess is all this takes time and we probably will have to be patient, like the draggy did for RoP and ARoP. So stay cool

[Aamer Khan]

Nal, I think so far we have all been very calm and clear with our view.

Please realize that we are under no delusions about what can be done or how fast. We all know that TG is a small crew working their butts off. I respect that, because I wear many hats at work myself. This thread and others like them are to help the devs understand what WE the players see as issues, and the possible solutions from our perspective.

Will they do exactly what we ask? Not likely. But if they address it at all we can count it as a win. A win for our cause for sure, and hopefully, a win for any players that come in after us. They have their plans, those wiley devs, and we really have to clue what will happen next. They give us vague hints, but until it hits the live servers, we don't "know" what will be. That part is fine by me, as I love to discover new things. I just wish that they could have the manpower and time to carefully review such things as the price disparity between Dragons and Bipeds. Perhaps this thread will encourage that.

[Lycaunoss]

Guaran, I thought that concept was discussed and accepted already, that dragons have traded not having to level ( 7, because 5 const, and 2 gathering classes ) schools for more difficult construction.

Here is the issue and it's soultion in a very easy to swallow form...

Take T6 construction and crafting forms, and put them on the trainers, and price them on par with what T6 lairshaping forms sell for.

Maybe then there would be more T6 biped buildings around, assuming there are resources to gather from in game.

I think that's a splendid solution Aamer. If the end result was that there were more t6 biped buildings then that's even better.

Having said that I honestly think that's the way that the devs are now moving. Dragon lairshaper being the first craft class to be designed as such. As I said earlier we'll know this for sure when we see confectioner. If their forms are on the trainers perhaps things will settle down a bit.

[Aamer Khan]

I truly hope that is the case!

We jest keeping um honest friend.