Billing Feedback

[lightning claw]

My thoughts
If your hearts content on doing this billing system that hafe or more of what is left of the community Disapprover's of

Bacic 12.95
5 toons
1 plot (including Guild plots )
one long on
5 cone slots

Try adding a online store with items you can only get by this store

[Henry Redacre]

one long on
5 cone slots

what the......?

okay, dude.. seriously.. i'm not sure if english is your native language or not, but if it is, this is deplorable. i'd suggest using a spell check or something before posting, but you didn't actually misspell anything i've quoted above, but the rest of your post could benefit from it.

i'm not intending this as a "personal attack" or whatever, i'm just saying that whatever you're trying to communicate did not get properly communicated here.

[RuneDragoon]

Try adding a online store with items you can only get by this store

This is EXTREMELY detrimental to a game. If you need examples, I can PM you a few games.

[Vermithraxx]

My thoughts
If your hearts content on doing this billing system that hafe or more of what is left of the community Disapprover's of

Bacic 12.95
5 toons
1 plot (including Guild plots )
one long on
5 cone slots

Try adding a online store with items you can only get by this store

Translation:
If your heart is set on implementing this new billing system that half (or more) of what is left of the community disapproves of, please consider this as a possible option:

Basic Sub @ $12.95
5 toons
1 plot (including guild plots)
1 concurrent log in
5 consignment slots

Woot! I speak Lightningclaw! ... I'm not sure if that should scare me...

Ok, my real reason for posting: Guys, chill.

Please don't post whether you agree or disagree WITH EACH OTHER. The on-topic for this post is to feedback Horizons-CS posting.

We're gonna disagree with each other, we're going to think each other is crazy. It' a forum, that's a given, let's try to keep this train SOMEwhat on track, please!

[Jaraiden]

I like the ala cart system, as in "pay for what you want" and like Maltavorn's idea. The essentials are concurrent log-ins (for a family), number of characters, plot(s), and vault space.

I'd suggest something like this (and drop that .95 retail teasers).

Concurrent log-ins: $ 8 for 1, $ 16 for 2, $ 24 for 3
Each log-in would have a plot

Plot size: $ 0 for small, $ 1 for medium, $ 2 for large, $ 4 for extra large

Character slots: $ 0 + $ 1 per character (2nd +) and per log-in

Consigner slots: 20 + $ 1 per 10 after that (per log-in)

Vault size: each $ 0.50 buys 2000 + 20 stack (10 max, for each log-in)


So a "basic" account would be $ 9 = log-in (8), small plot, 2 characters (1), 20 slots, game vault

A 2 player account could be $ 21 = 2 log-ins (16), 2 medium plots (2), 2 characters (2), 20 slots, game vault + 2000 (1)


Of course the down side of an ala carte system is the complexity and that revenue projections are more difficult.

Oh, and drop the military program or certainly put it at half price.

Edit: However, before I would subscribe, I'd want to see some planning goals (no dates) especially for dragons (to better match lore and as part of "their" game), level 120 cap, and some "reward" for single-class bipeds (or those with minimal mcing and thus some focus on main class).

[Sunuke]

There is one thing which is really bothering me big time reading through all of these posts.

There will be players that will be excluded from part of the game experiance because they can't afford it.

I've spoken out about the militairy program before. You can still do something for these players by just giving them a discount instead of giving them a free account which sounds more fair to the rest of the playerbase especially as these accounts can have a plot and all of the other special things while they aren't paying customers.

I trust Rick Simmons, Amon and Reyem to do the best of their ability, yet this doesn't mean that I first would like to see what this is before I would find it fair for them to up the pricing.
I understand they are asking a leap of faith from us, yet after our experiance with PMI/EII this is a big thing to ask in my opinion.

I really think that they should prove themselve in the comming 6 months and then if they have done what they have said I'd be more then willing to put my part in aslong as this is based on a fair system.

I understand this is an American company which would like to support their troops for their service, yet I don't think they can expect from the playerbase to pay more while giving out freebees which include plots that we have to pay extra for in this new system especially as the playerbase has become more international.

[Milandra]

I find this gifted subscription quite good
Extra plot and storage must be considered

I know this isn't the purpose of this topic but I think that giving some statement concerning the Unity shard is important while you're putting back the billing system on.

Even if we don't have our shard, a couple of european are still keeping an eye on the game

Concerning ancient accounts.
Why not set some big plots on an important area of battle for istaria ?
Those should be important for players as they help them to progress in defeating the aegis forces. You never forget a useful plot and its builder

[Xyndro]

I have just finished reading all eleven pages of the replies and my belief is that the billing system should be fixed and brought back as it was for now. After a set amount of time ((of the owners determination)) and the current owners have proven that they in fact can not only maintain the game, but also add some new content should the subject of price and subscription changes be brought up. The fact that a price change is even mentioned should not be too much of a shock to any one; the only shock in my opinion should be the timing. Due to inflation and the cost of living going up over the years the price of goods and services are bound to increase. On to the suggested subscription changes ((will not touch on the price other then this, the price of a normal account should not be more then what other “main stream, full staffed� games are.)) Your basic subscription should be viewed as an extended paid trial after the first ((what is it a week or two)) week of free trial is over and should be a lower cost then the normal subscription but at the same time offer a tad less.

• Basic Subscription (extended paid trail after free trail is over)

Character Slots - 3 maybe 4 Character slots (one for dragon as almost every one who played Hz has at least tried dragons, and two or three other slots for trying the different bi-pedal races to see which they like. But three seems like a good number)
Concurrent login – One concurrent login
Consigner slots – At least 3 maybe 5 per Imperial consigner ((Since the consigner is an important part of the game or at least should be and have it set up like it is today where you can have all your items listed on one consigner or spread over all the Imperial consigner as the player sees fit.))
Plots – should be able to buy one small the 25x25 bipedal plot ((not to sure what a small dragon lair size would be but maybe you could down the line add small dragon lairs just for this reason)) at least to start to gain an understanding of the building and planning that is involved (and hopefully get them hooked on the game.)

• Gifted Subscription (Normal subscription and should be set up as it is now for subscriptions)

Character Slots – 5 character slots
Concurrent login – One concurrent login
Consigner slots – 10 per Imperial consigner ((Set up so you can have all the items listed on one consigner or spread out among them all as the player sees fit))
Plots – One plot or lair ((Can chose from any plot or lair in the game just like it is now))

Not going to go into the next tier (Ancient Subscriptions) because they are or at least should be viewed as prestacked gifted subs for the player convenience. So you can chose to buy one ancient subscription instead of two gifted subscriptions ((Have ancient offered in two subscription, four subscription and six subscription and so on blocks and if the players want an odd number of subscriptions they can tack on a gifted subscription.)) While having the one ancient subscription cost slightly less then the two ((or more)) stacked gifted subscriptions would cost. Now this would be the monthly offer and you could offer the Gifted and Ancient subscriptions in a three six and twelve-month package where the price would be reduced slightly over the monthly cost. And then offer little extra fluff items that do not give statistical advantages over the monthly packages, like shoulder pets that just sit there and not give any buffs or the such like the treant ones from the winter festival, costumes/outfits (Town wear that only looks nice and does not give any stats) Just little fluff that would encourage people to buy the three – twelve month subscriptions. I know this is a rather long post and most of what I have said has been said before in one form or another but I wanted to say it again in my words to add support to what believe and think

[LOVWYRM]

[QUOTE=Tryagain;156906]Lunhilde you are comprehending that this is a game right ?

*off topic*

@ Tryagain:

Will you PLEASE stopp reminding adult people, that "this is a game"

- it`s a weak contribution to the discussion, a poor argument

- it`s condescending and disrespectful

- it`s against all rules of feed-back

Do not try to judge, what you do not understand-
no one here deserves such indoctrination

[Katscratch]

I currently have 6 subscriptions in Hz. My main account has one sub and a game key is what it was called when I got it, the rest are single sub accounts. I have 4 plots and numerous characters in my various accounts.

I didn't start out with all the accounts to begin with I just kept adding them as I needed and I'm paying 12.95 for each of them. I have supported the game since first time I logged in. I don't mind paying 14.95 per account to keep what I have. I think 19.95 is too much to pay for the same thing I have had all along, with serious content upgrade I might change my mind about that.

[Xyndro]

Forgot to mention this in my last post, I am currently playing and have been with Horizons since a few days after the public release. I have been rather active during most of that time with the exception of some time during the EI ownership of the game. During that year I was far less active then I was during the AE and Tulga ownership. I however plan to be online (Ether as Xyndro my main or as Xyndrin my alt) A lot more given the new and better outlook for the game now that Horizons is back in better hands. (( since it was mentioned that knowing what type of player each idea is coming from might be helpfull))

[Kala]

Wow. Huge initial post to respond to and I haven't even gotten to the rest of the thread yet. I'm not even certain where to start, so my apologies if it gets rambling. I already know it's going to be long. :/

Here are my thoughts:

1. I like automatic renewal. I'm VERY bad about remembering to pay things. It's ok for billing options to have as default "no automatic renewal," but please consider giving an option for auto renewal. If the concern is that people won't have money in their account every 6 or 12 months, send an email to the primary account holder reminding them that a billing cycle is about to go through.

Basic Subscriptions: This subscription was created to encourage people to bring in a friend just to try it out, or for someone who hasn't played for a while to take a peek before making a larger commitment. There have been some very good points made about the basic subscription - even for a new player - really needing consignment. Thoughts on 5 consignment slots per Imperial Consigner?

Consignment Slots: Everyone 'should' have 10 items, per subscription, per Imperial Consigner.

2.a. Isn't this what free trials are for? I'm not sure whether the free trial is one week, two weeks, or one month currently when Tulga was in charge, but free is usually a better encouragement for trying a game than a reduced fee.

2.b. Which one do you mean? 5 or 10? (If this got answered later, my apologies, I've only read the first post so far.)

2.c. New players need consignment slots. Our economy is already shot to heck, there's no need to make it worse. No, newbies aren't as likely to need as many consigner slots as an older player, but none? Five? Ten? How are they supposed to make any money? A full suit of armor is more than ten pieces. Spells for one tier are usually more than five or ten. What about potions? Or food? Or weapons? Or tools?

Older players may be willing to sell their items elsewhere (player-owned consigners in Bristugo), but the best market for newbies is New Trismus and Kion (and sometimes Sslanis). Who wants to travel to two or three towns to buy a whole suit of armor? Why should paying less per month reduce the basic functionality of the game?

If you reduce the consigner slots to even ten, my guess is that most people will abandon the Imperial connies completely and only use player-owned ones. Why bother hitting up multiple towns after a couple hours hunting to sell all the forms, techs, comps, trophies, blighted weapons, etc. you just picked up?

If the game had more vendor trash and less good stuff dropping, I could see reducing the connie limit. FFXI had auction house limits, but they were reasonable with the amount of stuff dropped. I don't remember if WoW had item limits, but I vaguely recall them having relatively short time limits. Vanguard has no time limit on the brokers, but a ten-item limit per continent (three continents) per character (which I still don't think is enough, but that's not a HZ issue). Horizons has virtually no garbage dropped (except for IBMs), which means that nearly everything is worth selling, which to me means that if items get reduced, then very little will be sold.

3. See 2.c., above. It kinda rambled into longer than a sub-point should have been. IMHO, connie limits should be 20-30 per imperial consigner, regardless of basic or gifted subscription. 25 sounds like a good number. (No logic behind it, it just feels right to me.)

Plot Types: A standard plot is any plot in the game, but we are thinking about adding some very large plots that would require a special subscription (like the Ancient subscription type). We're thinking these special plots would be equivalent to 2 large plots and possibly be located in special areas. We're open to suggestions.

Item Purchases: We do not want to create an environment where money buys advancement. Items or special skills for sale are not part of the plan.

4. I agree regarding the Item Purchases. I disagree with the special subscription plots. In my mind, it's essentially the same thing. Paying RL money for special benefits in game.

ANCIENT SUBSCRIPTIONS
6 Month Ancient Subscription - $179.95?
No automatic renewal
Comes with standard plot?, ? consignment slots, ? character slots, ? concurrent login, special hatchling shoulder buddy?

12 Month Ancient Subscription - $259.95?
No automatic renewal
Comes with standard plot?, ? consignment slots, ? character slots, ? concurrent login, special hatchling shoulder buddy?

5. Shoulder buddies. Blech. It's a great idea in theory, but I have three problems with it.

1. It typically requires you to have a biped.
2. I recall the dragon treant pets used a chest scale. Chest scales as a bonus thing for dragons suck, horribly. I don't like giving up my chest scale slot for fluff. I like being able to use the ceremonial scale or PV'd scales. If you make a shoulder buddy, you'd need to let dragons choose to have, I don't know, wing buddies as an option.
3. People are going to sell them ingame for absurd sums of money.

Potential solution: Make shoulder buddies an attuned emblem.

We are considering an increase in subscription prices for one reason: staff. If the majority of players who used to pay 12.95 pay 14.95 (a $2 per month increase) then we can bring on more people to the team. More staff allows us to get updates out the door quicker, or add more to an update. If we leave the current pricing structure in place, updates will occur with the current team at their current pace (as of Aug 25, 2007 we have the next delta in progress and a new client being tested on Blight). We're considering this change in the interest of making Horizons a better game.

6. This is a good reason. However... The game hasn't received any updates in over a year. It's quirky, it's buggy, there's still a memory leak. Several people, not many, still complain they're playing a beta. Don't get me wrong, I love the game; I wouldn't have stayed for so long if I didn't. It's just going to be hard for a lot of people to justify paying for a sub increase when nothing's changed. More than a few are tired of paying for future performance when the past performance hasn't been that great. I also think it's going to be hard for newbies to justify paying as much for HZ as they would for the other, bigger name games. My personal opinion would be to keep the prices the same, see who resubs, wait 3-6 months, maybe get the blight patch onto the live servers among other things, then consider a price increase.


I think that's all of the feedback I have. Spending too much time in MP, got distracted, and now I can't remember what all else I was going to say. :/ Oh well...here are my questions:

7. Why is there no 3-month payment option? That's what I have now on two accounts.

8. Is there still going to be a free trial? It's less important with Horizons since you can download the game for free, so you're making less of an initial investment, but I still think it's a worthwhile thing to do. As I stated earlier, people are more willing to try something for free.

9. Some of us have discounted subs back from when Tulga did some special marketing thing and reduced prices. Are we going to keep those? I'm assuming not.


Personally, I'd like to find a way to have another plot without having to get another entire sub if the prices get raised. I'm already paying for two subs. (One is on a regular 3-month billing cycle, the other is on the special promotion 3-month cycle.) I don't need extra character slots past what I already have, I don't need more concurrent logins (I'm happy with two), I'll probably want the connie slots, but I'm not willing to pay for a whole extra account just for that. I *really* want to keep the third plot I picked up under EI though.

Maybe there could be an option of after having two subs, each additional plot is worth half a sub? I could go into the math of what I'm paying now, versus what I'd be paying with a third sub, versus ... but I don't think anyone wants numbers. All I know is that if the prices go up, a third sub won't be worth it for me. To be honest, a second sub might not be worth it for me at this point.

I think that's it for me. Please ignore what typos there may be, it's a quarter to 5am and I'm falling over at the keyboard. I've probably forgotten some things; I'll post on those later.

[Silverblaze]

after much thought and reading peoples posts, as well as talking to folks in game. I'm thinking of purchasing an 'Ancient subscription" though I am seeking the ability to have a lair and a plot. for 275 a month I should have two plots not just one big one. if that gets changed...I'm totally getting the uber big subscription of death and oom etc.

If not well I guess I get two gifted packages and pay more, but that would blow.

[Menkure]

To everyone who has posted: WOW!! over 200 posts, and some really great suggestions and opinions. The feedback is very helpful, and is greatly appreciated!

I'd also like to point to Vermithraxx's earlier post, on this page.. It is very true that disagreements are going to happen.. what one person considers a good suggestion might be considered a bad idea by another. It' a forum, so it's a given.

The only thing though, is that this is a thread asking for peoples input and insight, and we do value everyones opinions. Don't worry more about other posters views than your own.. instead focus on yours and let yourself be heard.


To all those who have posted so far, A very big Thank You! And to anyone who has yet to weight in on the subject, please do!

-Menkure

[Fyrentennimara]

I again see people posting about the basic subscription and agreeing with it. I can't believe that after everything this community has been through, you guys are willing to let someone come in here and completely destroy what this game is about by simply adding a lower price tag and excluding them from parts of the game for that!

Anyone who subs this game after a trial should be able to own any sized plot in the game, just like the rest of us! And anyone suggesting otherwise....where are you getting this? They're lesser people because they pay $10.mo instead of $13?? Wrong!

Why do I keep harping on this subject? Because it's wrong, that's why. Because they should not even include this lower price if it excludes that player from parts of this game! Teasing a person who can't pay as much as the next guy, showing them in pixelated color that "this is something you shall never own here unless you somehow some up with more money! Neener neener!" That's wrong, folks! No other game does this. Why should Hz?? It's never been a part of this game's community to leave a person out based on outside game wealth, and it should never become so, and I can't believe that I keep reading suggestions from people that exclude someone based on RL cashflow. It's appalling.

[LOVWYRM]

I totally agree with your words, Fy,
but pls keep in mind- It`s only suggestions

The new owners need money, we all understand that
those who can afford will support the game (I have no good idea how to..).
But we can`t save HZ for the price of a 2-class society.

[Fyrentennimara]

Exactly! I agree with you, but, since that is the case, the basic subscription should not even be included in the deal. Why torture someone who can't pay the normal price, by showing them what they can't have? It's ridiculous. I just want people to see that suggesting a basic sub of any kind is just a breeding grounds for all types of elitism, and would make that player feel like a lesser member of the community. That sub price is a horrible idea. Make one price, stick to it. Offer a 6 month and 1 year package deal(that doesn't include any in game items)done. Every other game does it like this, Hz should do it like this.

This is a key issue, and will be the deciding factor on whether or not VI is trustworthy. I will not hand over my CC info to a greedy company who seeks to segregate the community based on how much money they fork over.

[Royal]

- Family names/signs?
- Maybe dyes/logo's on shields?
- I'd love to build my stone with my name on it on my plot.

[Smaug]

I agree with Fyrentennimara. I've already realized plot reclaimation isn't gonna help me get nicer/larger plot cause I don't have the many gold pieces ig that others do, and even though I can more afford in rl to compete for "goodies" then I can ig, I don't particularly like this moving to rl also. Its not fair to ones that can't.

I pay for 4 accounts (1 since day 1) and went crazy making toons when the limit was lifted lol and yes even bought a few extra plots for storage (curse of the packrat with limited ability to build on small plots) and to start a community plot with a Saris General store. I'll delete what toons I have to (please give some warning as age of character may not be way I'd like it decided) and give up plots if I must, but make all subs the same. Don't divide us up in who can afford a "deluxe account" and who can't.

Also consider alot (have no idea on how many but from what I've seen said ig I'm taking it as a fair amount) have been playing for free. Some I imagine will quit once they have to pay, don't drive more away raising the prices to much.

[Hannabal]

Wow,lots of posts to read.For now use the current billing system,get some cash flowing in,bump it to 14.95 if necessary and get some much needed repairs/updates done.In the mean time keep monitoring posts here. And dont mess with consigner limits!