With a view to ending the conflict...

[Aamer Khan]

Two wrongs don't make a right, ( but to lefts do... )

That applies to both sides here.

It is not acceptable to ME to exploit the invis bug, plot craft exploit, or even resell novians.

It is also, not acceptable for ME to lust after the things the banned players got from exploiting nor any of their plots.

Just because a player seems nice in MP and crafts for tips, but also exploits bugs and harasses players at spawn points doesn't make them good for the game or absolve them from being banable.

Neither is it right to think just because a player can be rude or cranky, they are automatically band for the game ans should be banned.

The entire scope of a players ACTIONS are what define a their reputation in the game. If enough unacceptable conduct takes place, no amount of "niceness" will undo the damage.

[Creme]

I would agree with SteelClaw and Flindar's posts above. A player "knowing" which game mechanics are ok versus not-ok is impossible. Take expert fungal processsing for example. Until the patch came out normalizing the experience awarded, many players rushed to level any classes utilizing this form.

I've heard guild leaders talk about using the invis "feature" as a "nice trick", been encouraged to use it by a guild leader and other "respected" members of the community to make it easier to kill Reklar. I've even heard these same players state "if the owners thought it was bad, they would either fix it, or say it's not to be used", while using this "nice trick" and these players are still in game. A number of players in another guild is using an interesting "game mechanic" to die and come back to life in the same location w/out recalling.


The ONLY organization that has come out with any information regarding what they considered an "exploit" on this topic was EI. That sticky was removed, which might be why a group of players has been perching since Virtrium took over. Does their continued presence in game mean that Virtrium does not consider this exploitive? If it is, where are the bans?

The simplest way to avoid any grey areas is to put what is and is not allowed in black and white so that all players are aware or FIX it. If some guilds/players still in game now continue to utilize these "tricks" and remain in game while others get banned supposedly for the same offenses, where are the uniform standards?

Maybe these players don't have large enough plots in game and yummy "novians" to warrant getting bans?

What is the motive behind, and the yearning for a few plots, given the sheer numbers of plots that will be reclaimed once plot reclaimations come to pass? The glee behind some players desire for large plots is rather disturbing, almost as though it's encouraging bans for the purpose of getting their hands on large plots in game.

Hopefully they'll be banned again well before plot reclaimations and those nice big plots they bought with exploited money will become available.
....
It's my sincere hope that Unity players will arrive with plot tokens and vaults full of Novians, ready to bid on those nice big plots I mentioned earlier.

Are they permanently banned for life? If so, will they empty all their belongings on their plots and put the novians in their vault and allow us to buy the banned people's plots?

These types of statement don't make the "community" look warm and inviting but rather plot-greedy and malicious.

[Vengeance]

[quote=Kala;160410]Oddly enough, those people who got banned were behaving significantly better in the Marketplace channel than they had been in the past. (I can't speak for elsewhere, as I got bored hunting the boss mobs to extinction and wanted to work on other things.) So...how exactly did they fail to change their ways? Answering questions, crafting things for people for tips only...yeah, sounds like true evil to me.

quote]
Their behavior in the MP did not get them banned. The screen shots and logs of them exploiting on the battle fields of istaria did.

[Alladania]

Maybe these players don't have large enough plots in game and yummy "novians" to warrant getting bans?

I don't think the contents (or lack thereof) of someone's vault or available novians would have anything to do with someone being banned. Since the devs can spawn any item in game in any quantity, at will, it's hard to picture them lusting after the virtual possessions of one of the players.

[Kala]

Just because a player seems nice in MP and crafts for tips, but also exploits bugs and harasses players at spawn points doesn't make them good for the game or absolve them from being banable.

I agree with you entirely. They could very well have been arrogant, rude, pains in the rear outside MP. Frankly, they wouldn't be the only ones. I've met a lot of seemingly nice people in MP who turned out to be major pains later. I've also met rude, sarcastic, tactless people in MP who are actually pretty nice outside of it.

However, they didn't have a stranglehold on the boss mobs while they were back. I saw at least one time of death reported in MP while I was logged in and paying attention. I'm reasonably certain there must have been other times the boss mobs got killed by other people, as well, but I don't hang out in the boss mob channel, and not everyone feels the need to declare time of death in as public a channel as MP.

As for harassment, no offense intended, but I would like to see logs and screenshots of the harassment from AFTER they got unbanned. I tend to be a "looks at both sides of the story" type person. I also like proof. I don't like making decisions based off hearsay...especially when there's very strong, very obvious animosity between the parties involved.

Neither is it right to think just because a player can be rude or cranky, they are automatically band for the game ans should be banned.

I sincerely hope I never make it onto the ban list for speaking my mind...or being cranky. I've gotten really good at being cranky. (Get off my lawn! Hmm...wait, I don't have a lawn... Get off my icy field! You! Stop making snow dragon-angels and go away!) Nor do I think they were banned for being rude and cranky, by the way.

I'm also not saying I believe they're completely innocent. I don't believe anyone is. I just feel like they're being turned into the scapegoats and the bad examples of the Horizons world. (You'd better behave, otherwise you're going to get banned, just like those nasty, evil exploiters!) I'm also reasonably certain that in some circles, because I've dared harbor the thought that they might not be entirely in the wrong, I'll be considered to be just as evil as they are.

[Kala]

Vengeance, you said their behavior had clearly not changed, hence why they were banned again. If it hadn't changed, why were they nicer in at least one place? I'm guessing it's because they did not want to get banned again and were trying to behave.

[Valtur]

NOVIANS WITH RESPECT TO PLOT RECLAMATIONS
Plots/lairs that have been reclaimed should be sold/auctioned bare. When the plot/lair is reclaimed, the novians should be placed in the vault of the previous owner. The previous owner put time and effort into the built structures. Just as their characters will never be deleted so they can pick up where they left off if they decide to play again, so should they have the novians from their previous efforts.

If there was a guild/community effort to build the structures, care should be taken by those doing the building to acquire contact information.

INVISIBLE UPON LOGIN
Any action taken or 10 minutes elapsed time from login, whichever comes first, should cancel the invisible state. If this is a tough issue to resolve technically, then the feature should be removed until it can be implemented correctly. I lived without it well enough from beta to merge. I've personally only dropped and logged back in dead a few times. This is rather insignificant compared to the other issues they should address. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's caused more problems within the community than the number of issues it resolved.

As far as it being an exploit (I'll have to admit, I don't do forums much), when Tulga first put it in game, I never read/heard of anyone being banned or warned for it. I know for a fact it's not in their Terms of Service. I believe it was an EI response to a core group of player's whining about another groups control of the epic mobs. As Steelclaw said, unless it is an official stance by Vi, players should take care in the use of the word exploit with regards to this "feature".

[Katscratch]

I have created a toon whose only job is to decon plots that belong to members of our guild (most of our plots are in guild towns) which I then use to rebuild plots that are owned by ppl within the guild. Since most of our plots are in guild towns persons outside our guild cannot purchase them.

I however do think it would be nice if members of a guild could transfer Novians amongst them selves. but I cans see a possible exploit in that as well all though my guild would not be inviting and dropping members to transfer Novians.

[LaughingOtter]

What is the motive behind, and the yearning for a few plots, given the sheer numbers of plots that will be reclaimed once plot reclaimations come to pass? The glee behind some players desire for large plots is rather disturbing, almost as though it's encouraging bans for the purpose of getting their hands on large plots in game.

I don't think there's anything of the sort going on, and it's very saddening that you have such a cynical and suspicious view of the community as a whole. Of course there will be interest in the availability of any really large plots since they are very uncommon and usually quite hard to obtain. My only glee is this matter arises from the fact the players on Chaos are finally free of a group of people with a history of disruptive and abusive behavior.

It is, sadly, quite true that several other players are engaging in actions long ago declared to be exploits. They have been and should be reported. If they persist in these activities after having been officially warned, then yes, I'd say ban them too. However, whatever happens to those folks, or doesn't happen, has nothing to do with the banned individuals. They have only themselves, and their own misdeeds, to blame.

[Creme]

Their behavior in the MP did not get them banned. The screen shots and logs of them exploiting on the battle fields of istaria did.

I've seen plenty of screenshots and logs of players still in game using "questionable" game mechanics.

I don't think the contents (or lack thereof) of someone's vault or available novians would have anything to do with someone being banned. Since the devs can spawn any item in game in any quantity, at will, it's hard to picture them lusting after the virtual possessions of one of the players.

I don't think it is the devs lusting after virtual possessions. Unless you're saying players have no need to lust after virtual possesions as the devs will spawn them whatever they want? If so, I want...wait, let me come back with a list

[Spartikus]

...Neither is it right to think just because a player can be rude or cranky, they are automatically band for the game ans should be banned...

If enough unacceptable conduct takes place, no amount of "niceness" will undo the damage.

Aamer you just don't get it. Who are you to start telling players what is unacceptable.. Are you really that arrogant? Do you really think that you and a select few have the right to start telling Virtrium what constitutes harasement? If you think players are harassing you by playing the game their way and you dont like it.. Maybe it's time to move on.. I mean I know you've said you were moving on so many times in the past and thrown a big tantrum about it when you didnt get your way.. It seems like maybe you just aren't enjoying the game.

Horizons is a game. It's a virtual world that allows players to carryon a fantasy adventure and meet new friends within the confines of the mechanics of that virtual world. If someone, in their apparantly infinite wisdom, deems that some of those players are encroaching on the fun of others they can go to Virtrium with a complaint and get that complaint addressed. To come here, to a public forum, with such a remarkably incorrect title to a post as this one has, all you are doing is playing up the drama queen and begging everyone to stand up and look at what you think and hail it as something other than the tripe it is.

If you have a beef, write a complaint to Virtrium. Otherwise take your soapbox and go home. Every single "point" you post in this thread (or any thread that I've read from you) you attempt to slam the entire game's playerbase into compliance with your twisted, mixed up vision of what they can and cannot do.

Newsflash... you want to tell players what to do? Go make your own game.

[Silverblaze]

If those plots were gained with ill gotten coin...let the gear and novians be banned with the "exploited plots". Level the suckers to the ground, vault it all, done.

People *have* been drooling after those plots for many reasons, are they large, sure, but I can list a ton of other plots that will be being reclaimed that are just as large.

I'm not quoting people, because, we arent supposed to pick on people to prove our points. However, if you look back through this thread and concerning unity, you'll find mentions of, hoping folks get banned so their plots hit the market on reclaim. For shame!

To me that makes it sound much like people are not banning them for the right reasons. Am I suspecting the whole community fo being rude/villainous/etc. No. Merely saying it looks bad. Much as it would look bad for known "accomplises" or people known to be outspoken aginst them; to bid on and win said plots. Just something to think about.

In theory yes, said plots, if reclaimed, should go to the highest bidder regardless of their stance on game politics. though everyone will ahve an opinion no? I think I made it clear what mine is.

those t6 novians look awful tasty to me, I'm sure hte idea has crossed others minds. As for the loot that is assumed to be there. its my sincerest hope that all that assumption leads to a huge bid for naught.

ill-gotten gain is ill-goten no mater who owns it. though the winner of tat auction will likely not see it that way

I also have to side with kala on this matter. proof would be nice. not just elegant words, propaganda, and conjecture.

Oh...did I mention I'd like proof since Vi took control? Cuz, thats really all that matters.

Now... there are a lot of people who beelvie in second chances. I'm one of them. It seems to me, this second chance was... a bit skewed, if you will. Aimed to set themselves apart asa new company. I sincerely agreed with it. The new bannings, I refuse to state an opinion on until I see proof in eitehr direction.

however, in any case, to play devils advocate, should sufficient proof not exist...'twas a poor choice indeed and very shady. Should sufficient proof exist...well, as much as I enjoy chatting with them. Then I suppose, whats done is done.

Yes, I commited the atoricty of talking to them. Perhaps, other people should have done the same, to form their own educated opinions.

please note: I'm certainly not telling everyone to get along, like the same people, or do everything/anythign witout a hint of self serving motivation.

I myself am in an akward position of making well thoguht out choices and making freinds on both sides of the debate. While, not seeking pity or sympathy...empathy would be nice.

Much like kala, I do hope I dont get blacklisted simply for knowing them. Would be a folly to ban perfectly normal people by association as EI tried to do before.

[Silverblaze]

Aamer you just don't get it. Who are you to start telling players what is unacceptable.. Are you really that arrogant? Do you really think that you and a select few have the right to start telling Virtrium what constitutes harasement? If you think players are harassing you by playing the game their way and you dont like it.. Maybe it's time to move on.. I mean I know you've said you were moving on so many times in the past and thrown a big tantrum about it when you didnt get your way.. It seems like maybe you just aren't enjoying the game.

Horizons is a game. It's a virtual world that allows players to carryon a fantasy adventure and meet new friends within the confines of the mechanics of that virtual world. If someone, in their apparantly infinite wisdom, deems that some of those players are encroaching on the fun of others they can go to Virtrium with a complaint and get that complaint addressed. To come here, to a public forum, with such a remarkably incorrect title to a post as this one has, all you are doing is playing up the drama queen and begging everyone to stand up and look at what you think and hail it as something other than the tripe it is.

If you have a beef, write a complaint to Virtrium. Otherwise take your soapbox and go home. Every single "point" you post in this thread (or any thread that I've read from you) you attempt to slam the entire game's playerbase into compliance with your twisted, mixed up vision of what they can and cannot do.

Newsflash... you want to tell players what to do? Go make your own game.

this is waht I was trying to avoid doing, though in reffernce to another persons posts.

*shrugs* I can't say I disagree 100% either though...

[Henry Redacre]

in before lockdown!

[Menkure]

Not gonna lock it down.. not yet anyway.

Please, keep it civil. Personal attacks are a no-no, but goading someone into starting a fight is also equally as bad.

Personally, I don't want to pull out the mod-stick, so hopefully this little clue-by-four will be sufficient enough. Just keep things civil please.

-Menkure

[Silverblaze]

I'll do my best. Though its difficult to keep things civil here when it isnt being done anywhere else. I understand its your job to keep things as friendly as possible, but it may not be an option. Thats why I wont be offended now or ever if this thread gets locked, its a hot topic and a rather controversial one.

[gopher65]

in before lockdown!

Ditto. WOOOO! *rides the edge*

[Spartikus]

Apologies Menkure. I don't think the thread has anyproductivity in it myself but I certainly didnt help. Sorry

[Menkure]

Spartikus: Not a problem!


I know guys that the subject of exploits can get people fired up more than anything, save nerfing.. At least in the MMO world (discounting politics and religion here )

With the changes being made to the game, the developers are reviewing and examining everything. Shoot, with the spell timer changes, they have to if they are going to keep the game both balanced and fun.

And likewise, the same thing goes with exploits... both real and those perceived to be.

The subject of exploiting is an emotional subject, because it affects us all, in at the very least some small way. Peoples' opinions do matter, and despite the strong feelings and controversy, a lot of good ideas and suggestions were brought out because of this thread.


Of course, things which are serious and blatant exploits MUST be immediately brought to the attention of customer service through the community support site, so that they can be addressed as quickly as possible. If you think you have found something serious, it is always better to err on the side of caution and create a support ticket.

-Menkure

[Aamer Khan]

Spartikus, let me reply by saying that Not only am I not that arrogant, but I am certainly NOT trying to tell anyone what to do.

It's really this simple... I can't tell anyone what to do nor enforce anything. I am doing like everyone else in this thread, voicing my opinions.

However, what I was referring to is the community reactions. I personally have seen the harassment mentioned by others. I didn't like it, but was also not driven to go on any crusade to get players banned.

What is going to be funny now, is that by making that last statement, some will say I'm weak and not willing to back up my disapproval by actions. But I have consistently stated that only the Devs can stop these things NOT the players. I will again go on to add that Fairness must be had by all or it's ALL just wasted effort.

If some were banned by the community sending in tickets and logs and screenshots, and if anyone feels that those that turned in such tickets are ALSO exploiting the same bug, then by all means turn in tickets on these players as well. If the devs agree that they are players deserving of banning, then that will be fair also right?