Name "Reclaiming"

[Pharcellus]

Regarding:

VI owns the names. Item 11, EULA. Standard mmorpg copyright stuff.

Incorrect.

The EULA says nothing about ownership of the character, story, or name, and this has been debated in the past. Characters are always copyright by their creators. The EULA states that they have an unlimited, irrevocable license to use it as part of the necessity to publish your character to everyone else, as well as operate the game and the business.

They own the character DATA in their database, but that does not convey ownership of the more esoteric aspects of your character, including its name. IE, they cannot deprive you of the right to write a book using the character's name and story.

[Shian]

I don't know, who uses the /tell command line versus the friends list or player search? Even so, all you would have to type in addition is the surname. Big deal. If it is a problem, add them to your friends list. Problem solved. Long names, short names, makes no difference. Just click and a tell window opens.

I do. I'm pretty sure most new players or migrants do. Something like clicking on a friendslist is far from intuitive, dosen't exist in other games and there is no IG text directing you that doing so is an option. Don't have to yell at me or any other player for that matter by not knowing.

[Deth]

I also do not use the friends list I use /t and I know no one would want to type /t Deth Efinacaideilet

[Pharcellus]

I am not yelling, I am informing that you can simply use the facility that is there. It is VERY intuitive, and other games DO have it, too.

I play other games, and you HAVE to type out the full name of the character (ALL words, not just one or two) in their IM system, too.

In my opinion, the loss of someone's name is worse than a little inconvenience which already has an existing solution in-game to mitigate it.

[Velea]

Incorrect.

The EULA says nothing about ownership of the character, story, or name, and this has been debated in the past. Characters are always copyright by their creators. The EULA states that they have an unlimited, irrevocable license to use it as part of the necessity to publish your character to everyone else, as well as operate the game and the business.

They own the character DATA in their database, but that does not convey ownership of the more esoteric aspects of your character, including its name. IE, they cannot deprive you of the right to write a book using the character's name and story.

Actually, it does.

We retain all rights, title and interest, including, without reservation, ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to, or residing within the Product or System (including, but not limited to, the Software, any Character Variations (as defined in paragraph 12), images, photographs, animations, video, music, text and "applets" incorporated therein, and any printed materials accompanying the Software, code, programs, routines, subroutines, objects, files, data, online characters (including all items, currency, objects, attributes and appearances comprising or associated with the character), Accounts and any and all information uploaded to, downloaded from, accessible through, or associated with the System and the Game, including, but not limited to, all graphics, sound effects, music, animation-style video and text, some or all of which may have been developed by us or provided to us under license from independent content providers (collectively, the "Game Content") and all other aspects of the Product), which are and shall remain, as between you and us, owned by us or our licensors. This includes all updates to and copies of the foregoing as well as any character data contained within or connected to the Game. By accepting this Agreement, you acknowledge that you have not and will not attempt to acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind relating to, in or concerning the Product or the System or any portion or component of either, including, but not limited to, the artwork, music or other components of the Game.

And while it is not yet been defined clearly in the courts what this means (and there are pending lawsuits on both sides), and thus how it will be enforced on a case by case basis is still open for debate, someone writing a story about their character in an MMO world and attempting to sell it for profit without seeking permission could come up against intellectual property laws violations. For all intents and purposes, the MMO company (be it Virtrium, Mythic, Sony, Blizzard, or whatever) does "own" your character. There are some companies out there who expressly sign this right away in their EULA (Go Pets being the primary one at this time), most do not.

This is one of those hotly debated issues inside the gaming industry, and how it falls out in the courts could have ramifications that no one can really predict. Interestingly, Dr. Bartle did a talk about some of the potential long term changes various interpretations of these laws might have 20 years from now in the gaming industry.

Sorry for going totally off topic, but having sat in on a panel lead by the people behind the "Better EULA Project" not long ago, it was interesting to me as a player (and now developer) to learn that what I thought I owned I technically didn't.

[Pharcellus]

Actually, it does.

No, actually, it doesn't.

Read it again.

There is nothing there which says you own my character name and story. It pre-existed Horizons, and I have the proof. Virtrium cannot retroactively claim ownership of something which existed prior to them, without transferrance. There is no clause for transferrance in the EULA, neither does it lay claim to the esoteric genesis of the character in words.

And while it is not yet been defined clearly in the courts what this means (and there are pending lawsuits on both sides), and thus how it will be enforced on a case by case basis is still open for debate, someone writing a story about their character in an MMO world and attempting to sell it for profit without seeking permission could come up against intellectual property laws violations. For all intents and purposes, the MMO company (be it Virtrium, Mythic, Sony, Blizzard, or whatever) does "own" your character. There are some companies out there who expressly sign this right away in their EULA (Go Pets being the primary one at this time), most do not.

I'm not talking about using the specific world context, I don't have to use the specific, copyrighted world history, but I can describe my character's story using alternate names and places with a generic interpretation of the world.

If this is Virtrium's stand that they own my character name, all stories associated with it, even ones which predate Horizon's existance (even though the EULA does not claim such), then be prepared to sue me, because I have already started publishing and writing some more.

This is one of those hotly debated issues inside the gaming industry, and how it falls out in the courts could have ramifications that no one can really predict. Interestingly, Dr. Bartle did a talk about some of the potential long term changes various interpretations of these laws might have 20 years from now in the gaming industry.

Sorry for going totally off topic, but having sat in on a panel lead by the people behind the "Better EULA Project" not long ago, it was interesting to me as a player (and now developer) to learn that what I thought I owned I technically didn't.

Yes, I am aware of those issues, and have been for a lot longer than MMOs have been around. I have had to deal with them for LARP organizations, including writing such contractual agreements for them.

[Deth]

I would take it to mean the own the use of the name in game and can do with it what they wish as related to the game. I.E. If they do not like your name, find your name offensive, it breaks RP naming rules, any other reason they can think of, can change it to something else.

No they do not own your name and can not stop you using it else where or in your own stories as related to things not related to the game. But as you put down "Pharcellus woke up in the lands of Istaria...." That writing becomes there property. Change Istaria to a world of your own creation it is yours again.

[Pharcellus]

No, the writing does not become their property. That's not how it works. Using a trademarked name, or other specific names or events doesn't convey ownership of the whole; they only own the part which is truly theirs and can only prevent that part from being used/published. That's why changing the name in that instance removes the conflict.

[velveeta]

i don't know, phar -
here in mich, a website owner is being sued by jk rowlings for putting on paper the website contents (harry potter lexicon or some such).
rowlings had no prob with the website, but once the dood started putting it on paper with the intention of profit, the heat began.......
you can look it up in dogpile, you should be able to find the specifics....
(here is the first link i pulled up - http://williampatry.blogspot.com/200...icon-suit.html and another: http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2...t.html?ref=rss )

and lets no of us forget about disney's penchant for suing at the drop of a hat any percieved infringement.

and aside from all that, i personally feel that if you want to write something with a character named phar that has the same lifestory, you should have the good grace, at least, not to infringe on the game's copyright and/or trademark. show your imagination and create your own world to write about.

[Pharcellus]

Different situation. Taking someone else's work (the lexicon is SOLELY content about Harry Potter; that's what a lexicon is; more or less a dictionary or encyclopedia of the world) is different than creating your own character (the character IS mine; Virtrium had no hand in creating it) in another world.

In my case, it would be taking an existing character from another world, and writing a story about it in the world of Harry Potter. In some cases, that's called "fan fiction", and depending on how much of the world is used, can actually be considered a proper, independent work. However, JK Rowling can NOT claim ownership of MY character in that story, regardless. She can make effort to stop me from using material from her world in my story, but that is the extent of it.

My stories are and will be original, based on my own interpretation of the world. I am using imagination, don't worry about that. My point was that ownership of my character NAME and story elements cannot be claimed by Virtrium, not in the present wording of the EULA, anyway, and they are free to test that at their leisure.

[aine]

Umm...am I missing something here? I thought this thread was about name reclamations ingame...

No-one has threatened to prohibit anyone's use of their name anywhere outside of the game, and even then, not for paid accounts...and that is only a consideration at this point, anyway, not even a plan, per se.

*shakes her head in consternation*

[Pharcellus]

You opened the door to it via pointing out the EULA, and Velea further derailed it. :P

Dun look at me. I just like hearing my own voice.

[aine]

I pointed that out in regards to the name reclamation ingame, that being the topic of the thread.

[Pharcellus]

Right, but by pointing out the EULA and claiming that VI (incorrectly) owns them, you opened the door to the discussion of who can do what with which property.

That clause has nothing to do with their ability to reclaim names. They could do it whether or not they owned the rights to the names, which was never in dispute to begin with.

The "permission" part is such that they don't risk pissing people off and make it where they never want to return, if there was a chance. It wasn't that they HAD to do it, but that they SHOULD do it, because it is the proper way to do it.

[Deth]

I think I derailed it more so.

But back in topic I think a better way to say it is by the EULA they have the right to deny you the use of any name in game they wish. So no they can not own your name, but they can deny you use of a name. There by the ability to change peoples names they find inappropriate.

[velveeta]

agrees with deth's last post and apologizes for her part in the derailment.

[Takora Drakan]

So any news? *pretty please*

[Ishar Xhaan]

This is the worst idea EVER
DO NOT DO ANY NAME RECLAMATIONS PLEASE
I don't see where is the trouble with _Unity tag, a lot of us had _wind _earth or whatever and it wasnt any trouble.
Names are here to last, if the first one on server who had my name doesnt play anymore , then so be it i will stick with _Unity, it wont kill me and is nothing to be ashamed of.
The only option which is fair, is maybe a ticket system so V.I. contacts the players holding the name and ask him if he would be OK to let it go if he doesnt think he is ever going to play, if that player is OK to delete/rename is char as a favour then its nice but no other solutions are acceptable.
I would not want to see name reborns from players that are not themselves or who they were.
And guess who complains and cries , always the same ones selfishness at it's best.
If you can't live with a _unity tag ( ashamed of being from Euro server ??? i am not ), if you can't rename ( Why not TakoraDrakan for an example of one of the criers ) then you have a serious problem, if your name was taken before you, you have NO right to reclaim the name, would you go on a tomb and engrave a new name on a grave ? NO If i were to never resub, i wouldnt like this to happen, Imrryr and Kal would just be dead floating memories and their glorious name would never ever been seen again teaching lesson to the WA.
Sorry for poor english grammar but i bet you all got the idea

[Takora Drakan]

Excuse me please? I take that now as a insult that you call me a crier that I just asked if the idea is possible. I'm not ashamed to be from unity I just want to blend in the Order community. (And TakoraDrakan is not very role-playerish mister) And I wrote exactly my situation in my first post and that was sure not "OMG give me my name back! PLZKKTHX".... seesh get out of your egg shell and think around the corner please.

[Mysk]

@Ishar: Sorry, I absolutely disagree with you. Why should someone have the right to keep a name FOREVER even when that player has left the game since a very long time? Just because someone was first on a server shouldn't give you the right to keep the name forever. If you decide to leave the game (for whatever reasons) then you shouldn't keep the same rights as active players. Just imagine if someone started playing Horizons a few years ago and stopped playing after one month? Then you think that player should keep the name forever just because he was first? Sorry, that is just plain wrong.
I agree that there are some situations where it would be nice to retire the name (e.g. when someone died). But those rare cases shouldn't decide about the general situation.

For me the only question is for how long you should keep a name safe. Of course a name shouldn't be available immediately just because someone was inactive for a few months. But maybe after 1 or 2 years of inactivity (and no paying !!!) a name should be open again. After such a long time I don't think that ANYONE can complain that a name will be made available again. If you think your name is so precious and that people should only remember you then you need to keep an active account or reactivate regularly to show that you still care about the game.

And to make one thing clear: I am definitely not ashamed to be a EU player and proudly wear my unity-tag. I don't even know if I will try to change my name. BUT... I have 100% sympathy for the people in this thread who would like to get the opportunity to get their name again (without a tag) that they had for a long time on the old server. Especially if that name isn't used actively on this server anymore.