Expectations of Dragon combat

[Steelclaw]

Welcome to the 'other' thread, referenced here (http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...d.php?p=184674)


It appears that players and developers have very differing ideas of what dragons should be able to do with respect to combat abilities. I'm starting this thread with three intentions:


- Expose those limits as idealized by players and as idealized by developers.
- Get each side to understand (not necessarily agree with) each other.
- Converge on a single set of limits that all sides can agree with.


Why does it matter? As long as there's disagreement on this fundamental design aspect, there will be conflict, there will be ill feelings, and there will be accusations of 'not getting it'. Here's your chance to 'get it'. Yes, I know, it's far-fetched, but hey, at least I can try.


It's going to be an iterative process, since I'm not sure what the 'parameters' are or which ones actually matter. Try your best to stay on the topic, which I will update as new issues come into focus and old ones get resolved -- if this thread functions as I hope it will.


Of course, it may all fail miserably.


This is a completely different approach and I have no idea what will happen. As a participant, you will be asked to think hard, it might be difficult, it might hurt, and it might leave you feeling unsure about your own position. That's fine and to be expected. Calm down. There's no pride nor shame here.


Now, some ground-rules.


1) Answer the topic question (I know, its coming, really). Try not to deviate. If you notice a post is starting to deviate, it's YOUR responsibility to not respond.


2) Be prepared to be asked to explain or rationalize your position -- it's going to feel uncomfortable, but I declare it fair game. This is potentially hostile, and makes me feel uneasy, but there's really no “easy way� of asking someone “Why do you think that's right?�. Unfortunately, it's also important to know when trying to understand someone's position. Try to respond in a non-confrontational manner and don't take offense.


2.5) Leave your attitude outside this thread. If you adopt the attitude of “Why do I have to explain myself to YOU?�, you're not part of the solution. Don't post.


3) Don't use a person's position to attack them, trivialize their stance, or make assumptions about them. Example: “...you just want an easy button!� or “Stop whining.�


4) Don't make hostile posts. Some cases are clear-cut, some are not. One I'd like to point out is that while you can ask for an explanation (see #2), you're being hostile if it looks like you're repeatedly asking to annoy the responder or waste their time.


5) There's “you�, the reader, and “you�. a specific person (also included is “you people�, a group of specific people) The latter kind of “you� sounds accusatory and automatically places the subject in a defensive position. Use sparingly.


6) An unqualified “Should be� is not a good enough reason. That requires some sort of context to frame the statement in, and it is that context we're trying to determine.


7) Dragons aren't bipeds. They're especially not multiclassed uberpeds. Don't compare the two. Perhaps there can be some attempt at parity between dragons and single-classed (or 1.5-classed) bipeds.


8) This isn't for everyone. If you don't understand the ground rules, or don't think you can contain yourself within them, don't post. Nobody will know you declined.






All right. Read all 8 rules? You sure? Let's go.




The current question is:


“Given a dragon's level, what is the highest level mob you'd expect it to be able to solo? (in what length of time isn't a factor)�


Yes, I realize that there are mobs of different difficulties with the same level, I also realize that the 'gap' is bigger for higher-rated dragons. Provide some data points within those considerations, for example:


“I expect a /level 40/ dragon to be able to take on at most, a /level 50 WA/, but that same dragon I expect to be able to take on a /level 65 golem/�.




Oh yeah, there are 9 rules. :P

[Shur]

a civilied, rational, logical, structured debate? here? would you like fries with that?

anyhow, getting on topic:

In my view, what a dragon can solo successfully would depend on various factors (qualifiers of the "should be"s will follow the indented portion):

an enemy smaller than the dragon in question would be hard-pressed to survive unless it had some skill, ability or quality that worked against or around a dragon's strengths.

unarmoured fleshy creatures (say, a wolf, or a bear, any creature one might find in the woods) would be particularly vulnerable to a dragon. claws sharp enough to rend hide from bone, strength enough to shatter and crush bones (endo and exo) with a single blow, a mouth large, strong, and sharp-of-tooth enough to tear loose lethal chunks of flesh. fire hot enough to scorch skin clear to the bone. dragons occupy an irrefutable position at the very top of the food chain.

however, creatures of stone, metal, or water would be tougher to crack. stone and water are both resistant to fire, whereas metal is strong against claws. a foe made of stone might be slowly crushed and torn apart, metal melted, and water battered until it is scattered enough to loose cohesion. (though ice would shatter easy enough)

by the same token, creatures of wood would be highly vulnerable to flame attacks, one good hit with a fire breath would ignite such a being, burning it quickly to ashes.

a creature which is notably smaller than a dragon would be an easy kill, regardless of resistances, without the use of powerful technology or magic. A soldier, though he be armoured, would fall easily to an adult or ancient dragon in close-combat. what good is that armor when swatted with a claw the size of the one encased? even if the armour should not be smashed like a tin can, the shock of the blow would transmit through the body and traumatize every organ and shatter bones like glass. even if one is somehow armoured against such a blow, being completely enveloped in flame is all but garunteed to rob one of life, unless one is warded strongly against fire. and there is really nothing to be done should the warrior in question find his limbs bitten off.

a creature comparable in size to the dragon would be able to play more on it's strengths, and thus provide a more interesting fight, but unless the dragon is but a hatchling, these creatures are few in number.

a creature larger than an adult or ancient dragon would be terrifying, and those few which exist in game are indeed monstrous foes. thankfully there are obscenely few of them, being as they are all epic mobs.




given the size of the dragon, the below are what i feel should be the solo-capabilities of dragons, with modifiers given in parentheses to take into consideration the above factors (plus up to x% for faourable foe, minus up to y% for resistant foe):

• A hatchling should be able to solo any single (non-boss) enemy up to 15% (plus up to 15% against a favourable foe or minus up to 15% against a resistant foe) above-level
• An adult should be able to solo any single (non-boss) enemy up to 35% (plus up to 25% against a favourable foe or minus up to 15% against a resistant foe) above-level, and any non-boss group up to even-level
• An ancient should be able to solo any single non-epic, non-quest-boss enemy, and any group of non-boss (IE: named) enemies, in the game

Dragons are, as a race, terrible foes, regardless of age or size, in -any- lore that i know of.

Even a young dragon who has yet to gain his wings ("hatchlings" in this game) is more than a match for a warrior not accustomed to dealing with dragons (though a warrior who has trained to fight dragons may dispatch a hatchling with little effort.)

An adult dragon is a force to be reckoned with, capable of holding his own against any smaller creature unless overcome by magic, technology, or a dedicated slayer (who will usually employ one, the other, or both.)

An Ancient dragon is a truly terrible fighter, strength enough to tear apart stone walls, batter smaller foes to pieces in a single blow. Fire potent enough to wither armor and turn to ash any living thing caught within the blast.

[Steelclaw]

Now I get to post a reply!


I originally started to write this in paragraph form, but decided that a list would be easier to read.


dragon mob(indigenous) mob(WA)
1 3 ?
12 17 17
25 35 30
45 60 52
60 80 70
80 105 90
100 120+ 110+


Note that the numbers aren't exact, but there's an obvious widening of the gap, up to a point. Also note that fights at these data points are intense. Not 45 minute long intense (that felt REAL good once it was over, though), but at least 2-5 minutes. They're also on the edge of failure, where the dragon is barely confidently going to win. Go a few levels higher and it might take a few tries and take a bit longer.


So, what's my reasoning?


At lower levels, I don't expect much from a dragon. They don't have many abilities, nor skill points, and only have the most basic of equipment. As they progress, they get more abilities, better gear (including spells), and better techs to go on the gear. As the options for configuration get more varied, there are more play styles, and more 'bad' moves. This in turn, enables more ways to play sub-optimally, on the average, as well as optimally -- the gap between them spreads. As there are more choices, skill becomes an important factor -- knowing what attacks to use when on different mobs, what spells to cast, what buffs to use, when to hold em', and of course when to run.


As a player who works on skill and strategy, who goes through the trouble of getting the highest usable techs on the highest usable gear, I expect that I be able to do better than kill “mobs at my own level�. If I put in (skilled) extraordinary effort, I expect extraordinary results, up to a point, of course (no soloing Son of Gigaroth for me ).

[Shur]

mine is more detailed

[Adwene]

Steelclaw, your suggested numbers are interesting but I have found there is many factors. I know I have a lot easier time leveling ADV on my dragon because she is already 100 DCRA and can use t5 scales. When your making these suggestions are you doing it from the point of view of someone using standard scales and where they are not using potions/buffs or have extra stats from crafting?

Without those 'buffs' your numbers seem fairly realistic. I'd probably scale slower at the start and ramp more after lvl 40ish.

[Steelclaw]

When your making these suggestions are you doing it from the point of view of someone using standard scales and where they are not using potions/buffs or have extra stats from crafting?

Oh, sorry. That's with all available scale slots filled with the highest usable techs and scales. No crafting "bonus", no biped buffs or potions.

[Vahrokh]

One of the biggest design failures of WoW had been that some "specs" were good for amusement, /dance or material farming alts and little more. They were toy characters that even with incredible epics would still perform 60-70% of something more mainstream.


Hopefully, Istaria's objectives are different.

I expect that dragons have similar weaknesses and strong points than non dragons. If a non dragon can kill X, a dragon should be able to kill X.
Another approach could be "complimentarity": a dragon can easily kill X but not Y, a non dragon has it the opposite.

Both dragons and non dragons must be able to grind their own gear tech reagents.

On paper, the most heavily geared, hoard capped, epics dressed dragon, a dragon you can't improve further, should be "worth" as much as a most heavily geared, epic dressed non dragon.


In Istaria we have an "open ended" half of playable classes / races and a close ended other half. Until something happens so that dragons become a race that "scales", there's disparity.

We can't compare to "uberpeds", on the grounds that they have to level N classes. This causes some immediate consequences:

- Once level 100 and ancient, a dragon player is done. No more advancement also called "player retention".

- Once level 100 and ancient, a dragon player gets no more new spells, skills, stuff to learn or aim to. No more player retention.

- Once level 100 and ancient, maxed hoard and triple teched gear, a dragon can't "expand" his power any more.


At the same time a 'ped can and will (since there's no other "end game") become "uberped" and:


- Can advance in a dozen+ craft school that will impact on his adventure "power"

- Can advance in a number of adv schools that will add more skills and spells

- Can tack on nastier and nastier mobs, sometimes entire pulls of them.


Now, to provide for challenge, (portions of) the game are balanced to be challenging for "uberpeds". This automatically pushes out dragons, as all they can hope to achieve is to be "worth" about like a rating 130 multiclasser.

The visible result: dragons queuing at Nadia because some mobs require shield of gold, gold rage spam etc. etc. and one add means insta death.
At 3c per hoard and a seemingly 5% drop rate on some nasty items off linked pulls, Nadia becomes the attractive solution.

Now, as I proposed in the suggestion forum, all of the above could have a relatively "light" to implement solution by letting dragons buy more skills by acquiring experience equivalent to more level 100s.

These are my expectations: to be "opened" a way to earn and improve beyond an hard coded limit that can be reached in a month of soloing.

[Shian]

Why not have lairshaping count as a class then and have some stat gains? That would give us something else to work on beyond 100 (since I don't see multiple classes for dragon coming any time soon) and would give us a chance at getting some of those T5 Elenath comps without resorting to Nadia for most of them.

[Steelclaw]

Vahrokh (and you too Shian ): That's really beyond the scope of this discussion right now, though I appreciate having thought given to the end-game. The only concern at this point in this thread has to deal with the dragon's level, and what level mobs it can take on solo.

Please go back, read the original post, and respond (only) to the question there.

(Would some mod like to hide their posts before this thread goes on a massive tangent?)

[Vahrokh]

Vahrokh (and you too Shian ): That's really beyond the scope of this discussion right now, though I appreciate having thought given to the end-game. The only concern at this point in this thread has to deal with the dragon's level, and what level mobs it can take on solo.

Please go back, read the original post, and respond (only) to the question there.

(Would some mod like to hide their posts before this thread goes on a massive tangent?)

I re-read the original post, and my reply deals with the topic name.

Your point seven, moreover, is a premise that undermines the discussion before it starts. Game balance is all about creating an even playing field across classes, if you start excluding parts of solutions / answers as a premise, you partly made your own implicit answer by yourself.


Example:

Your own "opinion" is impossible to achieve without taking into consideration point 7.

dragon mob(indigenous) mob(WA)
1 3 ?
12 17 17
25 35 30
45 60 52
60 80 70
80 105 90
100 120+ 110+

I bolded the relevant part.
As of now, killing a WA 70 at 60 or a WA 90 at 80 is a something that is more of a dream than practice.
The lone skeleton or whatever is doable, but the WA mobs main properties are to be "group friendly" and require a diverse arsenal of counter-spells, resistances, changing damage element output and so on.

This simply does not exist for dragons, some non dragon classes have all of it without multiclassing.

Basically, I think your approach is bottom up (start with dragon and balance mobs by correct level without considering the surrounding non dragon behaviour) while I feel a top down would be on order (balance all the classes to achieve similar results and then tailor mobs against that resulting solution).

[pevil2000]

Hmmm well my response might not be as technical as some of these previous ones but hey hehe. The way I always *thought* it was until I heard of some other dragons (and experienced it myself) was that a hatchling was pathetically weak, an adult was average and an ancient was terrifying. Which is how I believe it should be. However I have since witnessed hatchies taking on higher level mobs (up to 15 or more levels higher) and have myself managed as an adult to take up to a 80 level mob when I was ~60 (and I'm far from being 'pimped out'). Also this is just my thoughts of how it should be for a regular player, not someone with maxed crafting or a huge amount of buffs, just someone soloing and doing what they can.

The way I see it should be is like this:

Hatchlings - regardless of their level (so for those of us wanting the 'challenge' of having a level 100 hatchie, it would still apply at high levels) should just barely be able to take on maybe something a couple of levels above them. A hatchling is technically a baby. Young animals aren't good at fighting, other than play-fighting. Now ok, this 'baby' has big claws, teeth and a fiery breath, but it's still a juvenile. I guess a hatchie should be comparable to a 'regular' non-multi-classed biped. Capable of soloing all normal mobs it needs to, but not great with bosses or higher level mobs.

Adults - on completing the RoP we should start to gain extra stats (not much) that are just enough to give us a bit of a boost in power. These should be more like the dragons mentioned earlier; anything of the same level we should be able to lay waste to, particularly squishy beasts like wolves and pigs. Once adult, we should be able to take on higher level mobs, somewhere between 10-20 levels higher perhaps, but only one at a time, *maybe* 2 if you get really lucky with misses etc. Named mobs we should be able to take out up to 5 levels higher than us. By this time I would expect to be better than a same-rating biped/comparable to a 2xclass biped perhaps (forgive me my biped is only lvl 8 so I'm not sure just *how* powerful they can be!)

Ancient - Ancients should again get a good boost in power upon completing ARoP. Ancients need to be the real tough cookies, capable of taking down a solo mob of ANYTHING except epic mobs. A normal level 100 mob we should be able to take on a group of them; WA and blighted type mobs we should easily be able to solo but struggle if a few of them come over to us (keep places like the Satyr Islands a bit of a challenge) We should be comparable to an 'uberped' that has a couple of classes under its belt perhaps (maybe make us as if we're a rating 130ish?)

Basically overall make it a similar reward to multiclassing bipeds. They have the 'difficult' part of levelling up all the schools in order to reap the power at the end. We should have the 'difficult' part of being a pathetic hatchling, then a 'normal' adult before finally reaching the powerful heights of being an ancient.

[Raptress]

In general, hatchlings should be weaker than adults which should be weaker than ancients.

Hatchlings are little baby dragons. They can defend themselves, but they're still learning the art of combat. They get better as they go along through experience, of course, and should be able to handle harder and harder situations as they go, but only up to a certain point. As such, I would expect a hatchling to be able to handle maybe two or three levels above its own until level 30 or so, at which point they can handle perhaps three or four above. Around 50, five above. Were one to actually get to 100 as a hatchling, ten above. These are all "normal," non WA mobs, and the circumstances of the victory would be somewhat costly, but the win would be the dragon's, leaving it at 1/3 to 1/2 health. WA mobs are generally rather built for serious combat and I wouldn't expect a hatchling dragon to ever be able to tackle something more than two levels above itself. A hatchling dragon would probably not be as powerful as say, a single-class warrior since the dragon is learning as a baby whereas the biped is learning a style of combat as an adult. With the gratuitous use of hoard moves, they could measure up to a single-classed biped. Levelling a hatchling should be a challenge, a fight for one's survival to adulthood. As with alligators and crocodiles, formidable as the adults are, not every hatchling makes it to adulthood.

An adult dragon is a survivor and a fierce opponent. They are huge things of fire and fangs and metal-hard scales. They know how to fight and they do it well. They can easily handle standard monsters five to fifteen levels above (scaling up as the dragon's level increases: 30-5, 60-10, 100-15), can tackle a small group of even-levelled monsters, and stand on even ground with an equal-level named. WA mobs are still dangerous, and adults should be able to handle single mobs at maybe ten levels above at 100, and a group of two or three at a slightly lower level than themselves. They should be equal to a single-class at level 50, closer to 1.5 classes at 100. Adults are strong, but still not invulnerable. More adults can survive to become ancients, but still not every one of them is going to see that day.

Ancient dragons are terrifying monsters of myth and legend. They are the pinnacle of what a dragon can become. They've fought thousands of battles and they know all the tricks and skills. They can fight and kill any non-WA non-named "standard" mob singly, and a group of five even-levelled of these mobs should be doable. They can handle non-WA non-epic/boss nameds singly maybe five to ten levels above. WA mobs at ten-fifteen levels above, and a group of three even-levelled. With heavy hoard usage, they should be able to take down pretty much anything that isn't an epic/boss mob. At the least, without much hoard use beyond silver strike, they should be equal to a 1.5-1.7 class biped. With the use of moves like gold rage, 2 class. Heavy hoard usage gets closer to 2.5. Ancient dragons are the winners of the game of life, and should be feared as such.

Aside from that, casters and meleers should be on par for what levels of mobs they can take down, though the actual type of mob may differ, according to wards and resistances and whatnot. Casting and meleeing are two different ways to play the same class, and both should be equally viable and equally desirable. I would expect the caster to have more support options than the meleer, and the meleer to have greater damage output potential.

As a final note, I know nothing of high-level battles. My highest level on this game has been a 59 adult dragon, and the highest biped I've had is probably rating 22. So while the actual levels commentary may be a bit off, the biped level to dragon level commentaries are what I think they should be. Hoard usage should make us incredibly powerful the more we burn it, as that is essentially the only mechanism we have to rely on to equalize us with bipeds. They get things for earning them with levels, we get them by paying for them with hoard. All the levels commentary above was assuming no hoard use other than silver strike. Hoard should be power, not necessity.

[Silverblaze]

I simply don't agree that you cant compare multiclassed bipeds and a level 100 maxed out ancient. However, unless anyone, such as the OP would like my treatise as to why, I shall not expand upon such thoughts.

I expect a hatchling to flounder where an adult owns the enemy.
I expect an adult to struggle but succeed where an ancient succeeds (in some cases adults should flounder also)

I expect dragons to be tanks on an epic level, dragon scale is always spoken of regardless of myth as impenetreble.

I expect little else from the myth standpoint as they very in most other topics. Some fly, some don't some have 6 legs, some have no wings but fly, some cast magic, some aren't even intelligent. See what I mean?

I know what I can do. Without biped buffs, potions, healing, banners, and without resistance gear based on the foe I fight.

I can solo anything that isnt one of the "epic 6". I can solo multiples of most critters, other than some t6 WA. I can pull a field of purple necro flies, icy dires etc. I need no resists. Though they make it easier.

That being said, I expect my skill at the game to matter. I expect my tactics to matter. I could solo a thornwood treant, when they were added I was a tiny little 70ish dragon and my rival a dwarven berseker told me I couldn't. So i did and he gave me a truckload of hoard for proving him wrong.

Since we as a dragon community are not able to multiclass, we need abilites to put us on par with those who can. At present we do. I think dragons are close to where they need to be.

I expect a new player to be confused and challenged while playing a dragon. I expect a veteran to call down miralces in combat and be a juggernaut of death. That is to say, that early on dragons have always been weak...I don't think thats an issue. Later on dragons are awesome ( sparing the leet speak). I don't see a problem with this. In other words, an uneducated player should have problems, a wise player should be worthy of legend. Dragons do not need to be an easy button, or super user friendly. The tiniest hatchling is a force of nature at level 100 at present, thats fine, that hatchling needs to be even meaner as an adult or ancient. I also have not been asked for ways to fix the few short comings dragons have. I'll not discuss them unless formally asked to. (perhaps another thread)

As far as changes go however...I expect the fact that being as big as most biped dwellings my strength should be comparable tothe strongest biped. The fact that a tiny dryad with fitter to 100 can have more base strength than I is confounding.

I however, do not expect all things in a fantasy setting to make sense.

I expect hoard to be burned by the buckets to make our "overpowered abilities" be balanced with the naka.


I expect faction to have NO bearing on my combat or statistics whatsoever. Faction shouyld be a politicla standpoint, a role playing opportunity, and a philosophy only.

[Silverblaze]

I've been told I didn't answer how many levels above a dragon should be able to solo.

Thats level dependent. Early on I'd say 1-5

around level 25 the number should in crease to 10ish

around 50 Id say 20 above

around 75 i was soloing t6

at level 100 its not a matter of how much above, more a matter of tactics and skill.

At this point I'd have to say skill is very important to playing a dragon. those unskilled will flounder a bit, those who know what they are doing make combat look easy.

I hate to say it but people can agree with me, I won't say who has in the past though. Some dragons and players are built badly and play poorly. They won't solo above them by much. Some players are bad to base generalizations on. That throws off the curve nad skewsthe ability we wyrms have in combat.

I would very much like the devs to take this seriously and discuss with us how combat works for us.


To make drakes remotely inline with the bipeds, one has to evolve faster and make leaps that leave a single classed biped behind. As a biped however, why limit ones self to one class? They certainly don't have to.

As a result to remotely keep up we must be meaner thatn any single class. To those who limit themselves, we will look overpowered. However put us next to someone with a solid build of 2-3 classes, we're right on par. Right where we should be.

I know single class mages and sorc who pwn drakes. Just a way to look at it.

[peladon]

Welcome to the 'other' thread, referenced here (http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...d.php?p=184674)


It appears that players and developers have very differing ideas of what dragons should be able to do with respect to combat abilities. I'm starting this thread with three intentions:


- Expose those limits as idealized by players and as idealized by developers.
- Get each side to understand (not necessarily agree with) each other.
- Converge on a single set of limits that all sides can agree with.
.
.
.
2.5) Leave your attitude outside this thread. If you adopt the attitude of “Why do I have to explain myself to YOU?”, you're not part of the solution. Don't post.
.
.
.
8) This isn't for everyone. If you don't understand the ground rules, or don't think you can contain yourself within them, don't post. Nobody will know you declined.

Elder and Wise.

My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found as suits the seeker.

It seems I find me one of those ye bid keep silent. But then... That which Binds me is that which it be, and not that which it be not.

Ye speak that ye seek common thought. And in those self and same words, ye mark but two winds that blow, of gods and Woken, and that those two might agree. Elder... wherever there be three Woken gathered, most oft there may be some ten winds that blow. Aye, and that ere gods speak.

Thy words then seek to set aside those that do not choose to hold to thy rule. And thus again, ye set thy target to fail. For did even all that speak in thy speaking find common ground... there be those ye set aside. And thus... ye find their thoughts lacking in merit from the first dawn of this converse.

Ye judge them. Aye, Judge and cast verdict and sentence both. Silence and no part of thy thinking.

Elder and Wise. I am it seems one of those that ye bid to silence. It seems also that I... am not as ye bade.

But then, I am but the least of draku, and how can I have any merit of thought or word, for ye have set me aside even as those that Bound me...

Ye speak of finding common understanding. Had ye spoken of finding such only among those who accept thy will as to the nature of the converse... then I might not have spoken.

But ye did not. Ye spoke of common thought twixt Woken and gods.

My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost, for ye find them of no worth ere ever they be spoken.

To silence I return.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[Kiamarra]

I'd say hatchies up to level 30 should be able to do things their level or 5 or so levels higher, while a level 30 adult CAN take a level 60 monster, with all ability quests up to date anyways. Yes, it's hard, but entirely possible. I did it when I was 30. Level 40 and up, around 30 or so levels higher, and at 100, all normal mobs and a majority of the named.
But it's also easy to solo most things, if you have a proper strategy. And honestly after level 100, I think all named could be soloed save epic mobs, SoG being a possibility, but with a healer. Guess that'd not really soloing then, but meh :P