Making HZ more appealing to more players

[RuneDragoon]

There is a 3rd issue and that is the lack of any kind of dungeon. I recall we were told back in the day the system would not support dungeons. I'm not sure the average player can wrap their head around a fantasy game that it incapable of creating dungeons. /shrug I don't know if this is still a tech limitation or a resource issue.

The Blighted Labyrinth being worked on is a dungeon for T6 players.

[LOVWYRM]

"It's problems however are equally extreme. It has always performed badly and often requires a technical gamer just to squeeze acceptable performance out of it. I was in a guild over over 75 people and everyone quit because of performance issues."

I sign that: Without the help from (ingame)friends, I doubt if we were still here. Though Flame knows alot about the how to`s, and we have many RL friends, gamers, who were willing to help, but could not.
I can imagine that players who are not that tied to Istaria as we are, just leave, push a button and play WoW.

"The new team has done an amazing job. They started in such a deep hole though that I am amazed at how much they've pulled off. "

Horizons is one of the truly important MMOs ever made. It was ground breaking and with the old graphics and tech limitations it is still very capable of mounting a meaningfull comeback.

This I sign too!

Let me add something:
Yes- we have a great support,
yes payment is working fine now,
yes you can read all about it in our forum/wiki/order underground e.g.

but still a lot of players can`t or do not use all this.
Still I (and lots of others) could spent all day answering questions about
this issues, not speaking about those questions, new or low level players have to come along.

Sure- we can say: look this up in... but this does not really help.
I do not know why this is that way, and only a few ideas how to solve it.
But its a fact. And we should not ignore it, if we want to get new players, and make them stay.

[Freelancer]

As far as I remember it...

Back in the days of Tulga this game was doing very well. It has only improved since then. The player base in those days was much bigger as well. Their was an economy for new players as well, esp when plots and lairs first came into it (although you did need to craft resources). The problem is that the player base shrank to a small percentage due to some poor management of an unnamed company (not Tulga or VI) and the player base has never recovered to where it was. There was also the time the the new character creation was broken for a long period of time (during that decline) as well and the billing broke and I wont go on.

There are players out there who will play and I don't think that they are as rare as you are all making it out to be.

I think a real problem is the chat channels... As a new player, "there are chat channels? how do I get into them?"

[SinOfSuns]

Why Horizons isn't hugely successful:

It's old.


That's pretty much it. Players go looking for new games that break new ground, not to play an old game that's been around for years and years. Let's face it: Istaria doesn't really have anything outstandingly different to the newer games. Sure, you can play as a dragon and the crafting system is somewhat unique, but other than that it's a run-of-the mill RPG with the same things that most players would expect from such. (ie combat, grinding, more grinding)

A lot of RPGs with more players are free to play. Istaria isn't. A lot of newer RPGs have different ways of battling or playing. Istaria is pretty much a traditional RPG. A lot of newer RPGs have a large team working on them. Istaria doesn't.

It's not Istaria really. The issue is that there's just so much other stuff out there that a game like Horizons gets overlooked. It wouldn't even really matter if Istaria were super awesome and had fantastic gameplay and visuals. Bottom line is, it's still an older RPG with the same basic formula as all the other RPGs out there, and people are getting tired of that. In a situation like this, there's not much you can do either way...

[AmonGwareth]

That's pretty much it. Players go looking for new games that break new ground, not to play an old game that's been around for years and years. Let's face it: Istaria doesn't really have anything outstandingly different to the newer games. Sure, you can play as a dragon and the crafting system is somewhat unique, but other than that it's a run-of-the mill RPG with the same things that most players would expect from such. (ie combat, grinding, more grinding)

A lot of RPGs with more players are free to play. Istaria isn't. A lot of newer RPGs have different ways of battling or playing. Istaria is pretty much a traditional RPG. A lot of newer RPGs have a large team working on them. Istaria doesn't.

It's not Istaria really. The issue is that there's just so much other stuff out there that a game like Horizons gets overlooked. It wouldn't even really matter if Istaria were super awesome and had fantastic gameplay and visuals. Bottom line is, it's still an older RPG with the same basic formula as all the other RPGs out there, and people are getting tired of that. In a situation like this, there's not much you can do either way...

You are completely wrong, sorry to say. Many older games continue to thrive and being "old" has nothing to do with it. Having a niche that people enjoy is what keeps people playing them.

Lack of advertising has always been our largest hurdle because Tulga and now Virtrium aren't overburdened with cash to advertise lots. Add to that performance issues that create a barrier to entry and you now can see why the population is low.

Both things we are working to address. The game will never reach tens or hundreds of thousands of users (it didn't even reach hundreds of thousands at launch WITH advertising), but it will grow.

[Nambroth]

It has always performed badly and often requires a technical gamer just to squeeze acceptable performance out of it. I was in a guild over over 75 people and everyone quit because of performance issues.

I love this game dearly, but I'll put my name under that too. I talk about this game regularly in my online journals/galleries and other than the folks that say "That game still exists?" this is the #1 complaint. I personally know of more people that quit for this reason than any other. I am very patient and forgiving of the game having learned to have a love/hate relationship with the performance over the years... and even I sometimes cuss and toss my hands in the air and have to log off for the day because of performance issues sometimes, even on my new PC (and I do have load distance turned down, etc etc).

[Galdethriel]

Personally, I tend to like older games. Not -really- old games, I don't play those but... oldish games. I love Final Fantasy 9 down to the bones, and I'll tell everyone so, but FF10-2 and up? Utter trash. They're the reasons I stopped collecting the series. Yuck, yuck, triple yuck. >.>;

But older games have more soul to them, I think. Newer games tend to be glossed and buffed but they tend to lack the real fun factor older games have. Just generally of course.

But I'd agree that the performance is a huge issue. When I first went to New Trismus on my old computer, it took about an hour for any models to appear. Honestly, it was horrible. I was running around (as nothing but a shadow on nothingness) going, 'Eh? Why's everything invisible?'. I remember stopping by a biped player and asking him why I couldn't see him. XD

Playing became really quite hard at points. I remember after Amethist's ascension we went back to NT, and even though I'd been there loads of times before, it was nearly as horrible. Everyone was going, 'Oh, you're so pretty as an adult!' to her, and all I could say was: 'What? What are you talking about? Is this Amethist? I can't see her. Where is everyone?' XD ...then I accidentally clicked Khutit and got stuck between my two forms and had to re-log, and by the time my computer finally began to load models everyone had begun dispersing. I then logged off in a big huff and didn't even glance the game's way once for a -while-. XD

Sooo I was eventually compelled to go splash out 300 quid for a brand-new old computer! XD

But I still play with my settings quite low. My sister once described lairs as looking as if I was running inside a big sausage. XD It would be nice to not really have to choose between having the game be good to the eyes or good to the temper. :P

~Galde

[Velea]

Why Horizons isn't hugely successful:

It's old.

Gotta say I agree with Amon here that you're off base.

By that logic Everquest would be dead and gone by now, so would Asheron's Call, Ultimata Online, Meridian 59, Dark Age of Camelot, Second Life... the list goes on and on.

Istaria has a low population for a host of reasons, some of which can be overcome, others probably not... but being old isn't one of them.

[Veruliyam]

*curses SinOfSuns to raster lines*

Now you can only play...

Elite!!

[Frith-Rae]

mm Second Life doesn't really fit - its like apples to oranges...and offers something that like almost no other "game" (if you really want to even call it that..) does at this point... Being in and out of SL for the last few years, more out then in because its not a "game", I can say its really NOT what all those other games are..

I think Hz being "old" - there is something to that. All those games you listed yes are still alive - but "popular" would be a relative term. I don't know about their "new player" numbers or anything but they certainly aren't "grabbing" at most of the population available (I thougth AC was cancelled actually lol - and EQ is on SonyPass isn't it? So it doesn't even have to stay afloat solo...).

Being an avid forum watcher I rarely hear anything about any of the above (outside SL making News) games, Hz included.

I dont think he was saying they are "dead", as Hz is not "dead" - I think his point was that there *comes* a point where there's only so much retention and so many new players that any and all of those games are going to recruit and keep. Performance problems, "sub par" graphics, lack of anything "innovative" or "different" at this point - effects the numbers, profit, and therefore team numbers and game development of each of those games.

The difference is for most of those games, when they were new they were huge - had lots of manpower developing and tweaking and working on them, bugs fixed, new expansions (esp. in the EQ line) adding new content. Hz never was - never had that. So from day one players to those games you listed are getting more content, bigger worlds, etc. from the get go than Hz has ever offered.

I see it as neither good nor bad at this point, but like HS - it just "IS" what it "IS". Hoping for an engine retool or the ability to do things that we just can't (i.e. dragon riding) is pointless. In fact, even requesting little changes and things to the game means months and months of work time for our lovely little dev team. (And accepting bugs that have continued to exist for years, that probably won't ever get fixed for whatever reason..) Its just the nature of the beast. Our Beast.

And that beast isn't really going to change anytime soon. And as Amon said - they aren't expecting it to.

That's fine - but because of all that - the level of "appeal" is *always* going to be limited. The dev team is fine with a small niche game - if you're a player who isn't you're playing the wrong game. If you're wanting a game where you look out and see dozens and dozens of players - honestly I don't ever expect that to happen. I don't ever expect our economy to be "working as expected". I don't ever expect to see a field of dragon hatchlings anymore, running back and forth, grinding out their craft levels to make ROP. The numbers just won't ever be there - all at once - again. You're either going to accept that and make do - or you're not.

GOod or bad - that's where we're at.

[Sigi]

Hmm, old, nothing wrong with old.

I really can't think of anything that stays new for always.

[Galdethriel]

The difference is for most of those games, when they were new they were huge - had lots of manpower developing and tweaking and working on them, bugs fixed, new expansions (esp. in the EQ line) adding new content. Hz never was - never had that. So from day one players to those games you listed are getting more content, bigger worlds, etc. from the get go than Hz has ever offered.

I see it as neither good nor bad at this point, but like HS - it just "IS" what it "IS". Hoping for an engine retool or the ability to do things that we just can't (i.e. dragon riding) is pointless. In fact, even requesting little changes and things to the game means months and months of work time for our lovely little dev team. (And accepting bugs that have continued to exist for years, that probably won't ever get fixed for whatever reason..) Its just the nature of the beast. Our Beast.

And that beast isn't really going to change anytime soon. And as Amon said - they aren't expecting it to.

That's fine - but because of all that - the level of "appeal" is *always* going to be limited. The dev team is fine with a small niche game - if you're a player who isn't you're playing the wrong game. If you're wanting a game where you look out and see dozens and dozens of players - honestly I don't ever expect that to happen. I don't ever expect our economy to be "working as expected". I don't ever expect to see a field of dragon hatchlings anymore, running back and forth, grinding out their craft levels to make ROP. The numbers just won't ever be there - all at once - again. You're either going to accept that and make do - or you're not.

GOod or bad - that's where we're at.

Never say never! :P

HZ's survived a lot of trash over it's lifetime, but somehow it's always managed to pull through. I say, all it needs is consistency now (isn't that something it's never had? Consistency? >.> ) 'cause it's all an uphill battle. Who knows? Every object added, every feature improved is an investment in the future. :P I don't think it'll ever reach numbers like the more popular games on the market, but don't completely outline the possibility. ^.^

*gives everyone cheese scones to promote positive thinking. Also, cheese scones are tasty*

~Galde

[Vaz]

Positive thinking can be counterproductive in this type of situation. Encouraging it can lead to people playing a game for what it could be, not for what it is.

And...cheese scones? D: *runs away*

[LOVWYRM]

*puts off her rose-colored glasses, but it still looks the same:*

Horizons/Istaria survived because of

love and passion
tolerance and patience
commitment and competence
hope and trust- and
a dream we all dream together

on both sides- players and VI.

This words we normally do not use
to describe the criteria of a successful mmorpg.

And for those who do not understand- we still have our aces up our sleeve
(dragons, multiclass, craft & an inimitable support, devs who listen and-well I stopp here^^ ).

I do not know if that is enough for the future- but it is enough for now-I hope

[AmonGwareth]

And forthcoming... new launcher, new patcher, vista-compatible client, and a free content expansion, plus a renewed marketing/advertising effort. That should help "a little" :P

[SinOfSuns]

My point was that a large portion of the younger generation is looking for games that will push their hardware to the limits and bring them to all new levels of immersion, not a game that relies more heavily on niche marketing than full-market competitiveness. I'm not saying that being old means games get no attention, but to summarize what even Amon said, it will never be anywhere near as popular as say, WoW.

Therein lies my point. A niche game is a niche game, regardless of how fun it may be. Sure there are people still who play games like Everquest and Ultima Online, and I even used to be a player of DAoC, but the player bases in these games is comparatively smaller to the newer generation of MMO games. There are exceptions like Second Life, but at the same time, Second Life extends its longevity and reach by adding user-driven content and allowing more and more player interaction. That game's main pull is as a community rather than an actual game and thus it feeds off of itself.

Online MMOGs tend to have a kind of lifespan. At the beginning and middle, the games enjoy lots of players and lots of attention. However, at the end of that lifespan, the playerbase mostly dies off as a large amount of the playerbase moves on to more exciting things. This is of course aside from the veteran players who have become used to the game and remain behind for the community or other personal reasons. Thus, the game moves from being a traditional MMOG to being a niche game. Istaria has long since reached the niche setting for an MMO, and trying to bring it back from that phase may prove to be too difficult a task.

Istaria at one time was a proper competitor in the MMORPG market, but clearly years down the track a lot of its lustre is lost. For example, the graphics it has now are fairly good even for a modern MMORPG, but back in the day they were incredible. The fact that the graphics are now just average is part of the point: Progress erodes interest in older games.

There's nothing wrong with being old, it's just what happens to pretty much all games and technology after a time. Usually a portion of the initial playerbase will remain loyal to the game and not move on, but we have to look at the big picture here. Istaria may have already had it's best years (in terms of player numbers), and what we're left with may not be a hugely bright and exciting future at all.

Sure, Istaria's player base could liven up a fair bit from advertising. When done properly, advertising can make a huge difference to the attention something receives, and personally I'd be overjoyed to see new players in the world. At the same time though, it's still a small fish in a very big MMORPG sea...

In other words, just by being an older game it's at a major disadvantage. Technology these days easily trumps a lot of what we had back then. MMOGs (even free to play ones!) are popping up all the time thanks to Koreans with way too much free time on their hands, and there's already several major MMOGs out there taking a lot of players' money (WoW, Vanguard, Warhammer, to name a few). Horizons can try to compete with that, but it's not going to be easy or likely to make a huge difference in the end.

Players are fickle creatures, after all.

[Token]

And forthcoming... new launcher, new patcher, vista-compatible client, and a free content expansion, plus a renewed marketing/advertising effort. That should help "a little" :P

I don't know about the success of the game but i still intend to keep playing "Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted" and paying for my subs. So there is my vote I guess.

I would like to see more sources of coin introduced to the game and faster construction. That would make the game more fun for Unger Smith at least.

I'm wishing good luck and success to Virtruim with the re-launch of this game.
I would love to see a larger playerbase here, that would also make the game more fun for Unger Smith!

At the same time I'm still looking forwards to Guild Wars2 and Diablo III and will likely buy those games when they come out.

[Frith-Rae]

free content expansions are always good

I dont think anyone who still plays has "given up hope" and not saying there isn't movement forward at ALL - just saying its a slower pace..for good or bad - it is what it is .

[Sigi]

#36
Are you saying with this post it is a lost cause just because? Or something like abandon this game and start something new?
I don't get it.


In my view there's nothing wrong with a niche game and there's no game out there that is as popular as WOW, so no use to compare to that.
I just read an article which stated people nowadays are tending to want less violence and "harder" "faster" in games but are more looking for more relaxing games you play for fun and don't give you more stress.
Istaria fits perfectly in that trend.

[Cruciare2750]

The game needs a new engine if anything else. The chances of that happening ... I dunno! I just came back and to be perfectly honest, the ONLY reason I came back was to play a dragon. Even if its not iconic - over time it will get powerful and thats fine and dandy. But I have to agree with some previous posts that the performance of the current engine is lacking to say the least.
Here is my system:
intel quad core 2.3Ghz
6 gig ram
nvidia 9600 GTO vid card
Vista64 home premium

Game runs fine, but the load times are pretty long and there are times when armor or legs wont load ;p This ends up being "Lag" I guess from the database.

Just my 2 copper