Why???

[Tcei]

Funny thing is in my experience at least 75% of those "who fly early and leave early" would have stuck around much longer, maybe even become permanent fixtures on the servers had they not been harrassed so badly. Even Ic'ly there's a point where it needs to just stop, it gets old very very quickly when all anyone you rp with seems to focus on is your ooc level. Wonder how much fuller our servers would be if they had never been driven off?

As for the lvl 50 hatchling scale... I'd love nothing more than to see it removed from the game completely. It may be different now, but back when I ascended (at lvl 30) it was almost as if that stupid scale was the be-all-end-all only scale you'll ever need ever, period to some folks. Dont get me wrong it had nice stats for its level, and is certainly much easier to get than comps for a lvl 50 scale, but its not required in order to play the game passed 50.

[Shian]

Tcei, I really think you are an exception as far as the ascending at 30 argument goes. Your ascention was YEARS ago. This really is a whole new batch of players now. No one knows about the hatchling scales now because older players don't force the issue, and while I haven't seen much hide nor hair of the "OMG you must be 50!" crowd, the new generation really is stuck in the "30/30" mentality and are quite surprised when I tell them they're going up against level 45-70 mobs.

Back to the argument at hand, yes, they can play when they want, but when a level 30 hatchling is screaming in chat channels that someone MUST help them RIGHT NOW and no I'm not going to wait till you finish what you're doing, I'm sorry, that's not 'playing how you want' if one is so demanding towards another.

I haven't seen you IG lately. Do you really know the issue here?

[Tcei]

This tends to be a very touchy subject with me, and your right Im talking alot how it was ages ago. I also do not log in much anymore. Perhaps you are right ,maybe this person was overly demanding and rude in channel. I dont know.

Maybe I jumped to conclusions and figured that there were some older players who've come back and were treating the newer players like I was treated several years ago. I thought I had heard at least one player complaining that they were treated so here recently *shrug* I wasnt paying too much attention to dchat at the time tho.

I think Im just gona ignore this thread for a while. LIke I said this subject is very touchy with me.

[Teto Frum]

Well this isn't about when the ROP gets started to me, I could care less what level anyone wants to start it, understand the reasoning behind waiting, but also understand the excitement of reaching the quest minimums to get started and gain flight. Can only imagine taking the quest getting all excited and running across your first named kill and it dawning on you, HOLY CRAP I'm gonna have to grind another 50 lvls to solo this guy if i ever can.

I can't speak to whether this person pestered anyone about helping or just asked. I can say in their time in the guild they've not been agressive looking for help and Ive seen them hunting with non guilded dragons of their level. I don't care if no one wanted to help them or not, but it does bug me that once again I hear an all to common complaint, people being rude. I've played a lot of games and still play multiple daily, I've never played anywhere where I'd say over 50% of the people I've known have left a game for reasons other than finances or game play but here.

Anyways maybe I'm outta line, and out of place in a ROP discussion, whichever side of the debate on the ROP your on I hope we can all respect the individuals right to the decision, if you don't want to help don't.

[C`gan]

I tend to support hatchlings getting the level 50 scales before ascension. When the discussion comes up in Dragon, I will mention the scales and sometimes even call Tagath to get him to show the scales off to the hatchling in question so they may make an informed decision about them.

I mention that the scales come in handy in several ways. First, in the combat arena, they are very strong boosters of either the tooth and claw type (lunus) or the spellcasting type (helian). Second, the extra levels give all those wonderful extra boosts to the hatchling's combat in preparation for the RoP. After all, look at all the level-given abilities that come in, plus the extra scale slots for armor, and the bump from 30 to 50 means a whole new tier of scales with higher armor yet. Third, the scales are a hatchling-only grab. They can't be picked up AFTER ascending. Fourth, the craft boosts.

I've had dragons thank me for pointing out these scales because they didn't know the second (or third) set existed after level 1. I've also had some say they're not interested. It's their choice and their gain or loss. It's no reason for me to be rude and not help if asked. Still, Tagath may only help in the RoP to a limited extent. He waits to fulfill a promise.

[aine]

Good heavens! Are we still dealing with this issue?

Seems to me, (a dragon who ascended at level 30...over five years ago and is still playing, not that that matters in this case. Much.), that the real issue is one of social behavior.

If you think someone on a game, any game, is demanding and rude, just don't give them what they are demanding and put them on ignore.

Please consider that it is not your right to manage how another player plays a game, (again, any game, RP or not), as long as they are not causing you any harm. You have neither the right nor the obligation to tell someone else how to play.

Be polite and considerate, when asking for help or when refusing to give it. Give polite advice when requested.

Finally, with all due respect, just lay off, please, the making-up-your-own-rules about RoP. The game is set to begin the quest at 30, and begin it at 30 many will. If that offends you, close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears so you don't have to be aware of it. Simply NOT your business.



(There, T'cei, I said it for us both. We were each hurt by this, badly enough that it rankles still. Matters not if you don't log on lately, your thoughts on it still count, although you are missed, of course.)

[Uhlakk]

Good point Aine!

If a hatchi wants to begin RoP at 30 he will. And if he needs 50 hatchies to help him... he will get them. If not, it is not your problem.
In our guild we will help everyone getting up in the sky. ;-)

With trophies, to speed up lvling or whatever be needed.

But that's the way we go. ;-)
I call it HT!
(Hatchling Teamwork)

[Tarida]

Whoa...

After reading all these posts I feel kinda confused. As a new player (I mean really new, about one month now) I wanted to know when I am able to fly, of course. The answer in the dragon chat was pretty much in unison: Yes, you may start at 30, BUT nobody would like that. Even you won't like it.

This left me a little bit confused again, but when I searched in the Internet and even this forum, reading about these level 50 mobs, I decided those dragons are right, it is better to wait.

Well, as you maybe noticed, I didn't decided that because I was insulted or something like that but rather because I want a good RoP experience. Being able to say: "I did it!". Of course there will be mobs, like Kaa for Helians or the entombed dragon for Lunus which you can't do alone. At this point, help is simply needed, unless you are level 100. At the same time there is no shame in asking, I honestly believe older dragons will like it when they see a hatchie who came this far and will be glad to help (maybe). Seeing this from the RP point of view, it can be said that the older dragons help the younger grow up, so that they can help another young dragon one day.

Anyway, a hatchie who needs and wants help for EVERYTHING, including the wolves or spiders for the helian riddle or even the golems... that is ridiculous. See, RoP is about growing up, now, how much did you grow up with an ancient who did anything and you simply stood beside him?

But I was getting off the point... at the beginning of this post I declared my confusion. This is because I really can't understand a hatchie who wants to do this with 30/20. A group of hatchies of course, but not a single hatchie. It's not because I don't like the idea of flying at 30 but rather because he won't grow up at all.

My little Tarida is 44/51 now, and I believe I will start RoP with 50/51, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less, and I really can't wait. No, not for being in the skies. To do the quest. To get my RoP experience.

[Dhalin]

I think one of the reasons why RoP is allowed to START at Lv30 is because it is a long quest chain, possibly one of the longest in the game (maybe about the same length as ARoP?).

You can START the quest at 30, but that doesn't mean it should be COMPLETED at 30.

Some of the first few steps are easily solo'able at 30, including the killing of Silver Golems and the making of the sharpened silver claws (Lunus RoP).

I doubt they meant for you to wander into the deadlands and kill Kaa/Lem at 30. They probably meant for you to wrap that up around Lv50.

The quest was probably meant to be slowly completed over the course of 20 levels.

With that being said, I support the "Wait until 50" to do the big stuff. With the current _flaws_ in Mob AI, the mobs beeline for the lowest level in the group. Kaa/Lem might be <100 but everything around them is 100+. A Lv50 player could survive a hit or two from Kaa/Lem, but a Lv30 will guaranteed be one-shotted.

Same goes for the Shadow Dragon and Helian's Equivalent; I remember as a 52 getting hit several times. Of course I had a Lv80-something healer dumping heals into me constantly (risking his own butt to do so; the dragons had shiny scales to prevent instant death, but he doesn't), but I could still survive a few hits from the Shadow Dragon.

A Lv30 would have died several times over during the same battle. And as a 52, I was right there, dealing out my own damage, mashing the Orb button, along with my Gold Rage/Silver Strike. Being the lowest level, I was Main Tank, especially with the horrendous amount of damage the Orb/Phylacerity/whatever it was was doing to the thing.

I'm sure no healer/helper/etc wants to try and keep a Lv30 alive while they do that, that's a healer's nightmare. Who wants to heal someone who dies on the 2nd hit? The heals would have to land before they got hit a second time, and if any lag happened, the poor hatchling gets a mouthful of dirt and you're gonna be next (if you're a biped).

Edit: As I recall, doesn't the Orb/Phylacerity's damage base itself off of your Primal skill? We had 2 dragons there doing the quest at the same time, one was 60 and a primal-based dragon and his orb was doing a lot more damage than mine (I was T&C/Strength-based with no points in Primal). This means that a Lv30 would deal a lot less damage with their own Orb/Phylacerity as well.

[Edit:

Anyway, a hatchie who needs and wants help for EVERYTHING, including the wolves or spiders for the helian riddle or even the golems... that is ridiculous. See, RoP is about growing up, now, how much did you grow up with an ancient who did anything and you simply stood beside him?

She makes a good point here. I was able to solo nearly everything (including the golems) up until Kaa/Lem, the Entombed Dragon, and the Shadow Dragon, which all involved running past Lv100+ mobs and are Lv80+ mobs themselves.

I don't think a Lv30 is going to be soloing those golems, and some of the other mobs needed for the questline, to be honest...

[Fyrethorne]

Tarida,

I admire you for wanting to experience the RoP fully, and to complete the achievement yourself. I am an ancient dragon on Order. If this is your server, I would be honoured to help you with your task when the time comes.

[Shian]

Actually, Kaa is pretty soloable thanks to new mechanics ... approach from the north and glide into the center of the spiral. If he's there, you can one or two shot him then recall out before the other mobs have a chance to spawn.

I'm still trying to find a good strategy for Lem. Have died five times already, two of those attributed to 'hatchie holes'. I found a 32 ghost, which meant Lem was nearby (?) but some nasty kwellian-looking thing found me. I didn't even get a chance to get it's name.

[Malaquion]

As has been stated: Refusal is fine, but rudeness is completely uncalled for. There's no problem if someone thinks 30 is too low to start the quest, and they should be able to say so ICly. I don't really feel IC rudeness should be done either, but that's still not nearly as bad as berating the player OOCly.

It is true that level 30 hatchies are going to have a lot of trouble with the rites and almost certainly will need the help of an adult or ancient at some point. If you want to help, help; if not, don't. And, this:

Anyway, a hatchie who needs and wants help for EVERYTHING, including the wolves or spiders for the helian riddle or even the golems... that is ridiculous. See, RoP is about growing up, now, how much did you grow up with an ancient who did anything and you simply stood beside him?

I agree fully. There is a reason they're called the "Rites of Passage"...

I, myself, started at 30 (30/20, even!) and learned the hard way it wasn't going to be that easy. I never really got a lot of crap for ascending early -- was told by one person that they didn't help hatchies under 40, but that was politely done and there was no problem there.

I tried to do as much of the rites as I could by myself (it's what forced me to level my crafting, heh heh), but there was indeed no way I could've soloed the RoP at that level.

If I remember correctly, I did the rites along with a party of a few other ascending hatchies and an ancient or two.

[Raeshlavik]

Actually, Kaa is pretty soloable thanks to new mechanics ... approach from the north and glide into the center of the spiral. If he's there, you can one or two shot him then recall out before the other mobs have a chance to spawn.

I'm still trying to find a good strategy for Lem. Have died five times already, two of those attributed to 'hatchie holes'. I found a 32 ghost, which meant Lem was nearby (?) but some nasty kwellian-looking thing found me. I didn't even get a chance to get it's name.

I would expect the "Flight to Kaa" to be fixed fairly quick. I found this out by accident as I was trying to find out where he was - so I spied the big mountain near the eastern deadlands, got up there, and decided to do a glide-over and ran out of steam right over the center of the spiral (where the big vines are).

Once I landed I was shocked that I wasn't immediately turned into catfood by the high level dead things wandering about. I eventually spotted Kaa, noted his obscene number of hitpoints, and called for help.

Pags showed up and mentioned that I was very lucky - and being as we obviously didn't need to drag him out of the place, Pags just sorta blew him up with Kudako's help.

By hatchie holes I'm assuming you mean the trenches next to the walls? I died to those three times myself... *leap*, *fall*, "you begin to cast recall" - "some insanely high level critter hits you for a zillion hitpoints" *dead*...

My solution was to have Aamer go get Lem while Kudako killed anything that got close to where I was waiting.

[LOVWYRM]

pull Lem to Harro pad

no kidding *sigh*

this is what the legendary Enisha did for all hatchies, when Istaria was young.

Very helpful- we all stood at the pad and greet Lem welcome.

Later she did that with Thistleface. Always a party- dragons fly around Eni and Thistle like flies- to vaporize him as soon as he was on undiscovered country^^

[Takora Drakan]

I know it well from the other side, I am crafting peacfully with my ancient, minding my own business. Then I get a tell from a hatchie that asks me for help killing Kaa, well I look at the level and see they are 30/20, and tell them politely that they mostly will get one shotted when running down the spiral, and should get maybe a few levels more before trying that step. What I get then as response? They yell and isult me with colorful words that I am "rude" "mean" and "arrogant". Just WTF serisously.

[Uhlakk]

Hmmm... some Hatchies really are.... not... wise enough...

[Frith-Rae]

Being an old-timer that was around when the RoP first went in game.

I did it at 30/35, noone griped at me, noone told me I shouldn't, my entire guild was happy to "take me through" if you want to see it like that - and the screenies I STILL Have are an awesome tribute to the friendships and the community this game apparently USE to have.

This "new" elitist attitude disturbs me. Play how you want to play. Let others play how they want to play. If you don't want to help, fine, but no need piddling on other people's fun. IC or OOC.

IC you shoudln't be paying attention to people's "levels" - I don't give ancient respect to a level 100 hatchling. TO my dragon its a hatchling - it is not grown up no matter how many levels it does or does not have. My Frith-Rae is "older" than 90% of the Ancients in game right now, but she's level 90 and will not be Ancient because its my personal boycott against the crap that went into game and got called Ancienthood.

Does Frith expect to be treated with less respect because she doesn't have Ancient form? Yea..try that. See how she responds IC .

Now anyone goign around demanding anyone help them at any level should be ignored for the mean-person they are.

But if someone is all excited and asking around for help to complete their ROP in game, at 30, then I dont know call me old-fashion but "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anythign at all." No need to rain on anyone's parade, just be busy.

I had my ascension almost ruined by a "friend" in game because he was being a a-hat.

You may not agree that the game should "allow" someone do be able to do the game at 30/35 or whatever, but that's for you to take up with the devs. Not the player who's just having fun and wants to fly.

And if you choose to wait - goodie for you. That's your choice. And noone should slam you for choosing to wait. Give the same respect to those that don't.

[Veruliyam]

I was pleasantly surprised at the quick and helpful responses I got when I needed... well, wanted blue necrofly wings for Speed II techs for my wing scales.

I think it was because I had already been tromping around for an hour trying to find blue necroflies before I asked.

It may have also been because those that gave wings to me didn't need them.

Aucapoma

[Salama]

I agree that the everyone should have freedom to choose.

I have 3 dragons now, all of them did their RoP under their 50's. My first one was "soloing" with the help of adult dragons and healers. I was just eager and happy to have a big adult dragon of my own, so didn't feel bad at all, even if it was pretty much running around and staying away from mob hits.

My two other dragons did their Helian in 40 and 30 levels, but they were always teamed up with other 40/50/30 hatchies, so I saw no problem with that. Heck, my lvl 30 and my lvl 40 friend even duoed most of the mobs (even Seliena!) all by ourselves! And we both survived through them without deaths. It was all about planning our walking routes beforehand, and making sure we wouldn't pop in the middle of a mob fest while running around the high-level areas.

These days, I'm more than happy to help any hatchling that is asking help for his/her RoP, no matter what level. I've escorted quite a few 30 hatchies to different places, and I will continue to do so even in the future. It's their RoP and way of playing, after all. Naturally, it's good to let them know the advantages of being higher than that while doing this epic quest, but if they STILL wish to earn their wings a little earlier, I honestly don't see how it makes them immature or bad players. People are different.

Of course, I do understand if the hatchling is being rude to his/her elders, and in that case I don't wonder if people refuse to help them. But if this player is asking nicely, stays patient and is willing to wait for that extra 10 minutes I could possibly need to finish errands of my own, I see no reason to say 'no' to him.

[Raeshlavik]

I helped a guildmate ascend over the weekend - started at 31 and ended at 33. They understood what they were missing in skipping the level 50 scales and that we would essentially be doing all of the heavy lifting, and were okay with this. So it was done and we all had a great time with it.

I don't think its about saying "No, no ascension until 50", I think its about explaining that they will be missing out on. That and Kaeliss may be stodgy bookworm and historian, and grump about someone being too young, but in the end Drulkar will determine the hatchling's readiness, not him.

The guildmate lamented at one point that they were unable to even hit the things we were killing for the RoP - which we had explained prior, but the reality of just standing there absorbing heals while everyone around you does all the work doesn't really click until it is happening.

Which brings up an interesting question: Is the damage produced by the phylactery dependent on level (maybe stats which increase with level)? I ask because Kudako and I were discussing after a wipe on the Shadow Dragon - the time it took for her as a level 51 hatching to down the Shadow Dragon was *much* quicker than a 32 hatching. And on my RoP I killed Seliena in about 5 clicks of the phylactery at 51 while others report it takes a while longer when running a 30-something through the fight.

Just curious if anyone else has noticed this...