What's with all the Sad Faces? ... Let me tell ya...

[Tryagain]

considering WoW's first expansion is just about finished you will never see any posts about done it all. That game has infinite life possibilities because right now its more complete content wise than most current MMO's say for EQ1 and all its expansions. Horizons isn't even in the same league of Eliteness that Wow is and never ever will be unless a company like SOE, MS or even Blizzard buys the game. They will never have that kind of investment. The MMO market is simply to competitive more so than the Auto market.

Tulga games can carve out a niche if they know thats what they have to do. I am not seeing that right now.

[Gwindor]

Well, after playing CoH and WoW for a bit now, the only thing Horizons has IMHO over those 2 is community and that is fading quick. Instanced missions/quests, real loot in WoW, no lag(big deal to me) and smooth game play make it very difficult to log into Horizons these days. That coupled with the fact that so many friends have become fed up with the bugs, lag, lack of content and have moved on. I truly wish those of you hanging in there the best of luck. This game had so much promise...

Laters....

[Aamer Khan]

Again we arrive at the point of this thread, namely return to us a community with purpose.

Many fine points have been made. Much of it insightful and on the mark. However, we also see a bit of the feelings the current state of the game generates... and thats good too.

I too believe that AE has not refused to fix things, but that they have a long term plan that they are working towards. My fear is that many will not wait for it to be complete.

It's for this reason I would like to see AE communicate more details. If for instance, we were told that the next major event would involve "reclaiming a lost city on the mainland", you can bet your aunt edna's bank account that the effect would be...

Players jumping on building projects to be better prepared for whats coming...
Many finishing up they multiclassing they have chosen to fight or defend better...
Player construction organizations develop to plan for the new event.

And as the days go by, you would have happy players that forgot about the grind, that met new friends in their construction crew, and BEST OF ALL, players that stayed!

[Finduilas]

Horizons faced stiff competition when AE it released, 1 year on the situation is much tougher.

Everquest 2 and WoW have lead the vanguard of the next wave of mmorpgs, stealing many existing and potential players form HZ.

Next year MORE mmorpgs are set for release:

Dark and Light
Guildwars
Wish
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Middle Earth Online
Mourning
The Matrix Online

Many of these are promising a break from what we see now, a fresh approach, whilst others have an obvious hook, MEO for example.

In addition to this Anarchy Online has taken the bold step of offering the game, minus expansions, as a free to play, free download, no credit card required, trial, not for a week, or two, but a whole year. It's servers are once again full, and if it manages to attract just a few of these new players into buying and therefore subscribing it might once again be a contender.
However, even before the year is done I expect many older mmorpgs with expansions may follow this business strategy to reel in a whole new wave of gamers.

Eve Online
Everquest
Shadowbane
DAOC
Ultima Online

the list goes on.

How can Horizons possibly survive in the light of this? Moreover how can AE turn the game around from currently bleeding to death, to a gritty survivor, to a realistic contender, and then expand it?

[IndyMan]

1) kill the lagmonster

2) useable magicweapons/armor (DAoC has it and people still seek crafted loot)


these 2 things would allow me to consider a 7 day trial

[bright]

I must admit, i am one of the originals, and i read someone talking about how it was our fault and you know you were right. people did nothing but complain about how the game was too easy, how there were not enough mobs, ect ect, and look what it got them, those people that complained the most were the ones that left and they no longer have to deal with it, but they gave us this world now that is 50 times more difficult.


I started a monk prior to the merger, and no not because i got bored at a higher level, truth be told i take my time i enjoy the game my highest toon is a 50 dragon, befor the merger i could easily take a couple mobs a level or 2 below me with little downtime. after the merger he was stationed at lvl 16 rating 16, wanted a pure class, and i couldnt do much of anything. If not for the broken monk quest with the spiritous monk he would have never reached 20. it didnt get any better after that either. as a spiritdisciple with 15 levels of spiritist, only so that my spirit magic was at the level it was supposed to be, he still cant kill anything. i get creamated by mobs 3/4 levels below me. those early complainers got their wish, a much harder world, and their not here to enjoy it.



Another thing i read was a statement about how the world is based on multiclass, and thats the thing, multiclass, as cool as it is, is still going to be the downfall of the game. what is the point in grouping when you can take anyclass to any level you want just to give yourself a stronger edge. why should a warrior be casting magic, warriors dont cast magic, why should a caster have parry and weapon styles they focus on magic, but thats the whole problem. There really is only one way to stop this, first they would have to severely limit the classes people can be. several ways this can be done. one they can say okno more rating, you can have any class, but when you change classes you lose all abilities of the previos class, until you rejoin that school. for instance there is a lvl 40 warrior, he has all the warrior skills, he decided to join druid school. he keeps his skills in weapons the skill points, but he is of course limited to the weapon restrictions of class like now, he starts druid school at level 1 takes that to level 30. he decides to join a mage class, at this point he loses the casting abilities and percs involved with both druid and warrior. and starts at a lvl 1 mage. at anytime he can rejoin warrior and get back his styles and such. This would seriously hinder the ability for 1 player to become a 1 man group, but would still allow people to be any class they want, but i think that a class should only be able to use what they are SUPPOSED to use. no more warriors casting fireballs, what big barbarian type warrior would have the mental ability to cast a spell.



Of course there would still be requirements like now to join prestige schools, but since you keep the skills of you previous school it wouldnt really change that. as far as training points that should be kept on the same system it is now, you join mage school you dont get TP until you surpass your highest school. this is really the only implimentable way to limit 1 man groups. you can say will limit the number of classes or say that you can take 1 school to 100 next to 75 next to 50 and innumerable to 25, but there are already people with multiple 100s. tone down the number of schools who can cast certain spells, only schools who SHOULD cast healing spells arecleric healerand druid, the other schools like storm disciple, paladin, shaman, and ranger along with whomever else has a cleric or druid req for school should get limited abilities in those areas. paladins should have some heals but weaker they are a tank not a cleric or healer, storm disciple is more a caster so limit healing increase dmg spells, rangers would be maybe limited buffs, snares, and minor healing. seriously there is nothing wrong with this type of implimentation. it keeps the ability to join anyschool at anytime, and limits the power any one person can be, it may even revive the need for groups.



Another thing i read was about loot. loot in its own respect is not bad, BUT loot should not be better then anything player crafted. somany games have mad drops the best thing ever, and utterly killed anyreason to buy crafted gear, hey that reminds me of DAOC. loot is even more viable now with the nerf to drops that creatures have, not that it was bad. i do like the idea that monsters drop only what they can use, but it causes increased strains on the economy. now people who hunt on the newbie isles no longer get anything for the first 5 levels, thats when they can fist kill zombies. the blighted weapons are a neat step provided they do have some sort of RoG bonus.



as i said i have been here a long time, and i am one of those people that want to see this game be what i know it can be. no game ever touched me the way this one did. from day one it was my game, granted i cant bring myself to log in, but thats because the game turned from fun to a grind, my guild died everyone i knew left ect. that does not mean i gave up hope. even though i dont play very often i have still kept my subscription up, not because i had to but because i knew what type of predicament AE is in, and i made a decision back in July. i told myself that if i wanted to see this game make it, then i was going to stick with it til the end. my 12.95 may not be a loud voice, but atleast i hold pride in the game that i do still love.

[Vahrokh]

You are asking to the gods to return regular people.

They will torture and burn you in many Chinese hells.

[HratLi]

You are asking to the gods to return regular people.

They will torture and burn you in many Chinese hells.

Wow... That is cool. Is that an ancient Dragon curse or blessing? Or is it a Vahrokh original? :D


But as to what to do, I don't know. From what I've seen it seems to be a resource limited problem at this point. Too few people to get newtechnology and well written quests, and bug fixes. The Devs have gottenproficient enough to make the game do neat things, but here seems to be a limited resource after that to tie it into the world.

It willprobably need fresh blood, in the form of dedicated writers/quest folks, people to help create the lore of the world our characters live in. Give us a purpose, and bring us together. In many ways it's like keeping a working dog, if you don't keep us busy, we're going to try to make our own 'tasks' (build our plots/grind our levels) and once those run out, we will start doing other things, most likely counterproductive things like chew on the window sills, or pick at the way the company is run, or fight among ourselves, or just mope around feeling lost and dejected....

-HratLi

[Phillip]

"Another thing i read was about loot. loot in its own respect is not bad, BUT loot should not be better then anything player crafted."

this notion, is one thing that's killing this game.you people will never learn.

[Anikitos]

Little crafters will learn Phillip, when they are alone ingame with their toys.

[Phillip]

make no mistake, i don't think crafters are nasty demons or something. just the many who never care to compromise. they want their end to be good, and that's it.

HZ is extremely close to such an amazing game. we all saw that, we all live off that to this day. most of us are hopeless hoping it will get there. we are proffessional hopers. we live on that promising horizon, that bus load of potential.

no ticket to get on the bus though.

close, as in just a bit more tweaks in the engine to rid the lag. as bad as HZ can be, it's nowhere near AO months into release. we all know the lag will go away sooner or later.

close as in tweaksof the AI. make the NPCs move instead of vending machines, make the mobs smarter. this is oh so very possible.

close as in making the game more lucrative, more exciting for the bulk of MMORPGers: adventurers. there is a way to make a perfect marriage between crafting and adventuring, and how they won't hinder each other. the biggest problem here is that 1) crafting will take precedence and consideration whenever the devs think of something for adventurers 2) soon as the devs uncover something for adventurers, good or just crap, the many, many crafters will start squealing as if they been shot. twice.

a manywill always do that. they hate loot, they hate uberness, they hate powerleveling. they hide behind the notion of "community". heck, there are communities in any game. there are a plenty of communities in WoW, AC, DAoC, EQ, you name it. have a game, a good working game, and communities will spawn like wildfire.

people say there's no community like HZ. what? we all mushed together from 5 different servers, man. yet there are still so few of us left. OF COURSE we're gonahave acommunity. a community of survivors.

i remember in beta when a ton of people begged the devs to make adv loot. i remember the crafting fiends shouting that down all day long.an adventurersaid to a crafter "make it good for all of us, not just for you." how true.

[Senkeleron Fell]

"Another thing i read was about loot. loot in its own respect is not bad, BUT loot should not be better then anything player crafted."

this notion, is one thing that's killing this game.you people will never learn.

I do have to agree here, there does need to be some loot that is better than what the crafters can make, but it has to be very rare so it doesn't flood the market. For the lower levels I could see them having special equipment that was equivalent to something the character could use at maybe one rank higher than what they could normally use. And mobs could once in a while drop different color or designs of armor and weapons. That way as a person moves up levels they would still want new equipment as they outgrow the capabilities of their flashy stuff. But once again it has to be very rare, Granny Snaffles rare, andthey should be totally randomly spread throughout the monster base to cut down on any camping.The decaying blight weapons sort of answer this need.

[Kulamata]

Actually the crystals were about perfect.

Only problem is only some were initially desirable, but as players leveled and the crystals were nerfed they became "so Whats".

They were a clever way around the crafter issue, scarcity was about right at first, and seemed to me to be a model for that function.

[Vahrokh]

I think both Anikitos and Philip are right.

When I played my MUD, there was a really perfect (at least compared with a MMO) balance. There were adventurers, crafters and uber loot.

The smart idea of uber loot is N O T to have it colored or flashy or blighted.

I had a very rareaxe. It could be comparable to a tier V crafted axe of today but with "techs" giving +50 and ethereal damage instead of the regular tier V techs.

I had an equipment piece too, that gave very good bonuses to HP, str and most physical stats. For very I intend +10% of your hp, not an useless +5.

So what was the trick? The thing that makes an adventurer wet?
Color? Maybe, and only as a plus.
Being flashy? Good but still not necessary.
Being blighted? Nah. It's for people who know nothing about loot.

It was sought after (the second piece is cannot be absolutely bought for any amount of money) because it had real, effective stats.

What was the thing stopping all the shard having many and wave off to crafters?

The mob who dropped it died 2 times in 10 years (was a _tad_ hard and in an almost impossible area).

Here, it's an extreme example of piece for which Philip and Anikitos (and many others) would give away a piece of soul or even it all.

Me or they could go on for years to try and explain the 101 of loot (and I am a pure crafter!) and STILL people out there would not even understand what we say.

Just to say it all, in that game, not even the highest character of all had all the best stuff. After 11 years of continuous playing. Plenty of room for crafters to do their stuff. That decayed too, so it needed continuous renewal.

It's so darn simple; the good ideas and concepts are all there already and work since a decade. Just copy them if you AE cannot come with better ones.

[AA0]

I get the feeling each day that AE is so worried about something being overpowered that this game will never succeed. Anytime something truely great comes around it gets nerfed so someone can't get exp or do incredible things. Any great weapons that drop would be nerfed and not worth the time.

Classes get nerfed, crystals, spells.. name it, it gets brought down. I'm not sure whats the point of playing much longer because even though I don't seek to be the most uber player, I definitely want to be somewhat unique, and thats impossible in this game.

[Vahrokh]

Yes, in this game you sense the true meaning of being like communist lemmings. All equal, all mediocre, all without a final purpose. Grinding is the beginning and the end. An end that is the beginning of the next tier grinding.

[Finduilas]

From the WISH FAQ:

Players will never see a generic quest repeating over and over for anyone who wants it. In Wish, once something is done, it is actually done.

Now apply this to dropped items as well, off certain mobs, type of mob, or named mob.

Would this wreck the crating economy?

[Finduilas]

In regards to events, which I havenot mentioned yet,to bring the cpmmunity together:

This is from WISH FAQ:

Many MMORPGs have attempted to run GM events, but in the end, most have failed, citing too much manpower required to entertain too few people. Furthermore, they are all faced with having to coordinate their story over multiple instances of the same world. We at Mutable Realms have solved these two major problems. With one world, we need only one team and one story, and with the birth of Live Content instead of GM events, we entertain as many players who wish to take part, not just a small minority who happen to stumble into the right place at the right time.

[Tryagain]

one example of how crafting and looted items can interact is from WoW. What they do is allow the crafter to enhance existing dropped loot. What drops off of mobs is nice but the crafter made stuff is better. But what I like is that I can take my hunters dropped leather armor and apply armor boosting patches made from a crafter. An enchanter can take your existing equipment and enhance it as well. WoW could have done more here and maybe they will. But something like that would work well in HZ and still not destroy the crafter economy.

But

To clarify something that someone mentioned above. No people weren't complaining it was to easy etc. They were complaining that at level 80 they had nothing to fight. All the complaints about HZ were not about the challenge but the fact that there was no content period for 9 months. That is what damaged HZ not people complaining. All I ever saw was very constructive feedback from a then very mature playerbase that had a lot of insight to offer AE. They ignored it and now here we stand. Perhaps if they listened more to the Ambulance chasers and Monday morning quarterbacks threads like this would not exist and we would NOT be asking ourselves " Where is everyone and whats the purpose ? "

[furian]

Well, Gliding Frost, I'm not leaving, I'll tell you that...(Oh yeah Gliding, in the istarian world they call me Phinius :))