How About Letting Dryads Fly as High as the Tree tops

[Fireclaw]

and moreover it would really ..err.. poop on the dragons.
Why would it poop on the dragons?

In a certain way res was something only bipeds got, and now dragons will be getting it when they go ancient. Why not have one biped race that can fly?

Also, they would have to add to the other races some abilities/fix abilities that would make them good.

But if Dryad Dazzle and other racial abilities are the best. The world isn't fully populated with dryads (though I think it should be! [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img] )

Yes, add to the game, don't restrict based on "hey that would make X less powerful". Dragons getting a rez, fixing their heals, adding to their base stats. . . Same for bipeds.


Racial equality in Istaria 2005!

Dryad Revolution (3rd quarter 2005)

Dragons are far more limited than bipeds in far more ways than just a lack of rez (which it should also be noted bipeds get at level 10, while dragons would only get at level 90... if that, since nobody really knows what costs will be associated with dragon rez or if it will come with ARoP... or at a later date after ARoP). Dragons cannot build property, cannot multiclass, cannot build stats by adding craft levels, hit a brick wall beyond which they cannot advance, must spend time leveling hoard for little noticeable gain, much weaker in combat due to lack of effective heals, cannot be true casters, etc.

The defining features of dragons are (1) they can fly, and (2) they're dragons. If unrestricted flight is given to any biped race, then dragons lose one of their defining features that makes them so unique in Istaria.

Dryad dazzle is already one of the best of the biped racial abilities. However, even its usefulness pales in comparison to dragonflight. Give dryads true flight and they become hands down the absolute best biped race. The new half-giant tiered racial ability in no way compares in usefulness to any form of flight - even limited duration, low-altitude, slow-speed flight would be far more useful.

This is why if dryads are to receive any form of flight, (1) it should be very limited and there should be a noticeable cost when using it, (2) the other biped races would need superior buffs to put them in line with dryads, (3) dragons would need buffs to make them more balanced with the newly empowered biped races.

[Senkeleron Fell]

How about low level flight that has no real game mechanics? Just let the dryads change their altitude from the hight of the shortest gnome to the hight of the tallest halfgiant. Make it a visual change but not real flight like dragons, so there wouldn't be any combat problems to worry about.

[refuse]

Dragons are far more limited than bipeds in far more ways than just a lack of rez (which it should also be noted bipeds get at level 10, while dragons would only get at level 90...

Funny, I thought a biped had to be a cleric to get rez. Didn't know it was a racial ability.

The point was that there are "bipeds" and there are dragons.

The addition of some abilities (already implemented in game) would make for better distinction between the races.

Also, not all bipeds multi-class. All bipeds that do multi-class get a rating penalty. Not all bipeds leech Xp. So the argument you are using is valid partially.

1) If a biped takes the class Cleric, they get Rez.
If they don't, they don't get Rez.

2) If a biped has classes other then Rez.. . .

My point was that it could be construed that "rez" is a biped particular ability much like Flight.

if that, since nobody really knows what costs will be associated with dragon rez or if it will come with ARoP...

Absolutely.

or at a later date after ARoP).

Yep

Dragons cannot build property,

Lairs are comming

cannot multiclass,

But are a multi-class in and of itself.

cannot build stats by adding craft levels,

A problem that should be fixed

hit a brick wall beyond which they cannot advance,

Same with bipeds that don't multi-class. But that is more of a game mechanics problem then a dragon/single class problem.

must spend time leveling hoard for little noticeable gain,

Must is a strong word.
Dont' want the ability, don't do it.
Per your above example"Bipeds" must multi-class for rez. Bipeds must take crafting to improve there stats.

Perhaps it is more of a "may spend time leveling hoard". With new hoard drops the"time has been" reduced.

much weaker in combat due to lack of effective heals,

Funny again, mySorcerer character (single class) has no heals.
Pretty sure warriors, spearmen, mages, wizards. . . All don't have heals.

Not effective ones, they don't have any. 0, nadda.

Dragon healshave been helped, with techs, andimprovements to being "primal" based. (Sorry, fighter dragons heal worse, muchlike druids that don't focus in nature)

Again,multi-classing isn't required.

cannot be true casters, etc.

?
Not sure how you mean?
You mean no fighting ability?
Funny, my Blood Mage has an ability called coordinated strike, uses unarmed ability.
He also gets the use of some weapons. All classes do. Pure mage?

The defining features of dragons are (1) they can fly, and (2) they're dragons. If unrestricted flight is given to any biped race, then dragons lose one of their defining features that makes them so unique in Istaria.

They have 1crafting class, they have one adventure class.
They have innate attacks that get larger through outside forces (hoard).
They have one of the most complete quest structures in the game.
They have the best single defined racial Lore in the game.

(Note: Adult dragons fly, not hatchlings)

If any dragon is given rez, bipeds lose one of their defingin features that make them unique.

Dragons got cleanse, a defining ability for bipeds. Or was.

[quuote]Dryad dazzle is already one of the best of the biped racial abilities. However, even its usefulness pales in comparison to dragonflight. Give dryads true flight and they become hands down the absolute best biped race.[/quote]
Again, make all the races add value. Something defining.

You don't see people often talk about Dryads and Dragons, orgnomes and dragons. They talk about bipeds and dragons. There is next todefining racial differencesfor bipeds. 0. Yes, dazzle is a good (darn good) ability.Dryads probably have the best combined abilities of any of the bipeds. But stillwe are talking about 4% variance ofbipeds over 100 levels.

Distinction between thebiped races would be a good thing.

The new half-giant tiered racial ability in no way compares in usefulness to any form of flight - even limited duration, low-altitude, slow-speed flight would be far more useful.

Yep, another bad decision. It should be defining. Something that adds value to Giants.

This is why if dryads are to receive any form of flight, (1) it should be very limited and there should be a noticeable cost when using it, (2) the other biped races would need superior buffs to put them in line with dryads, (3) dragons would need buffs to make them more balanced with the newly empowered biped races.

Dragons are getting it, probably (I hope) in ancient.

As I tried to point out, I think dryads should hover if they get any flight.
Adding something to each of the races to better differenciate them would only add to the game.

Let giants become giants!
Let dryads dazzle.
Let Gnomes do gnomian things.

Make it so we talk about the races as unique distinct races. Instead of "bipeds/Dragons". Heck even the board doesn't list the dragons under races, they have their own section.

Yes, we know dragons have issues. No one says don't fix them. But then again don't fix anything until then? We are already waiting for ARoP.

[Fireclaw]

99.9% of bipeds multiclass. Show me the biped character over rating 60 is NOT multiclassed. I've never seen one. EVERY biped multiclasses. Even the so-called pure classes always have at least a few levels in some other class.

The point is also not whether bipeds multiclass or not. Its that they CAN (and if they don't, then they have chosen to gimp themselves). Dragons on the other hand do not even have the option to multiclass.

I am all in favor of dryads getting some form of flight for their racial ability. But for the reasons I have stated above, that ability should not be unlimited and all other races should be given something powerful to compensate (and something that will hopefully make them more unique so there would be a real reason to pick any race).

[Bori Grimbattle]

99.9% of bipeds multiclass. Show me the biped character over rating 60 is NOT multiclassed. I've never seen one. EVERY biped multiclasses. Even the so-called pure classes always have at least a few levels in some other class.

Why do people attempt to put numbers against something they have no way of measuring? Sinistre has Conjurer and Mage, Hmm mage is his base class that is required to get into Conjurer school, Bori has Warrior,Cleric and Paladin. Hmm Warrior and Cleric are base classes to get into Paladin school. Others like Aririabeth have Cleric only.

So if you want a biped over 60 without multiclass Ari is one. Now as I pointed out at the beginning it is very dangerous to put numbers against something you have no way of measuring. [;)]

<pushes a plate of freshly baked crow to Fireclaw> Enjoy!


As far as Dryad Flight goes it wouldn't bother me if they gained that as one of the new racial abilities TG is working on. That would mean we would all get something comparable would it not? [:D]

[Fireclaw]

If your cleric friend is truly a pure cleric, then that would be the odd one out. Most bipeds will at least take warrior to level 2 to master parry. As far as prestige classes go: they ARE multiclasses. It doesn't matter that they had to multiclass in order to qualify for the prestige class, it is STILL a multiclass.

Also, as I stated in my previous post, there may be some few rare bipeds who purposely choose to stay single-class. However, that is their choice: they have chosen to remain gimped single-class bipeds. Dragons, on the other hand, do not even have the OPTION of multiclassing we are stuck in a single-class and it IS a big disadvantage especially at high levels where dragons cap out and cannot further improve.

[Jah]

How about low level flight that has no real game mechanics? Just let the dryads change their altitude from the hight of the shortest gnome to the hight of the tallest halfgiant. Make it a visual change but not real flight like dragons, so there wouldn't be any combat problems to worry about.

[Y] Great suggestion! This would add fun without changeing functionality. The one thing about my Dryad's flight that has always bugged me is the inability to land [ do they spend their whole lives without ever landing? ].Thecurrent flight 'feels' morelike I am playing a hovercar thana Dryad.
While this would not allow them to land, it would 'feel' a lot better than the current hovercar flight of Dryads. This shouldn't require any new animations and hopefully would take little time/effort to enable. The end result would be well worth the effort. However, Ithink the work needed to add animations for Dryad's to land/walk isn't worth it. There are many projects of much greater value to the game for the devs to work on.

[imported_tjl]

I'm a biped and I don't even get rez [:(]

back on topic though, I think the dryads are fine how they are. letting them get thier flight training wheels by short duration flight wouldn't hurt, but only if it had to be gained in a similar fashion do dragon flight.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]refuse wrote: and moreover it would really ..err.. poop on the dragons.
Why would it poop on the dragons?

In a certain way res was something only bipeds got, and now dragons will be getting it when they go ancient. Why not have one biped race that can fly?

Also, they would have to add to the other races some abilities/fix abilities that would make them good.

But if Dryad Dazzle and other racial abilities are the best. The world isn't fully populated with dryads (though I think it should be! [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img] )

Yes, add to the game, don't restrict based on "hey that would make X less powerful". Dragons getting a rez, fixing their heals, adding to their base stats. . . Same for bipeds.


Racial equality in Istaria 2005!

Dryad Revolution (3rd quarter 2005)


Dragons are far more limited than bipeds in far more ways than just a lack of rez (which it should also be noted bipeds get at level 10, while dragons would only get at level 90... if that, since nobody really knows what costs will be associated with dragon rez or if it will come with ARoP... or at a later date after ARoP). Dragons cannot build property, cannot multiclass, cannot build stats by adding craft levels, hit a brick wall beyond which they cannot advance, must spend time leveling hoard for little noticeable gain, much weaker in combat due to lack of effective heals, cannot be true casters, etc.

The defining features of dragons are (1) they can fly, and (2) they're dragons. If unrestricted flight is given to any biped race, then dragons lose one of their defining features that makes them so unique in Istaria.

Dryad dazzle is already one of the best of the biped racial abilities. However, even its usefulness pales in comparison to dragonflight. Give dryads true flight and they become hands down the absolute best biped race. The new half-giant tiered racial ability in no way compares in usefulness to any form of flight - even limited duration, low-altitude, slow-speed flight would be far more useful.

This is why if dryads are to receive any form of flight, (1) it should be very limited and there should be a noticeable cost when using it, (2) the other biped races would need superior buffs to put them in line with dryads, (3) dragons would need buffs to make them more balanced with the newly empowered biped races.

Agreed Fireclaw, and well put. This basically sums up my quote of "poops on" quite nicely!

[refuse]

Also as a note I posted this awhile ago.

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=56936

The dryad portion is the 3rd post down.

It is the idea to add something defining to each of the classes/races.
Some Specialization within the race/class (much like the Hoard pt suggestion is).

The idea would be to have several options for a class/race. Obviously to speed up development certain things would be reused (flight, hidden cargo space (dragon quests), Rez, detox). So classes/races could choose 1 ability per certain levels, this could be mitigated by inherent class abilities (so say you choose detox as a racial ability, but then later have a class that gets detox).

So Dragons could do a racial quest for detox, which would be good, but slightly less then the inherent class detox. Dryads could do a racial quest for flight, which would be slightly less then the dragon flight. Blood Mages could have a rez (along with dragons) that has a different effect then the "cleric"/Healer rez and slightly less powerful, or as powerful with a drawback (in the case of the Blood Mage, the blood mage absorbs the DP rezing the target).

So we would take the "must have" abilities (heal, rez. . .) and tweak them for the races/classes.

Dryad Flight would be limitied unless they spent most of the "specialization" points on flight, in which case there are other thigns they are giving up.

Dragons could do things like "gain a "power"". Such as dragons getting the ability to get "Energy", or "Nature" or "ice" and thus could spend specialization points to gain the ability to cast these spells. (Thus adding in a stun/AoE).

There would be more choices, and thus open up the possibility of many styles of Characters. The idea is promoting Single classes, as well as adding difference to the races.

Dragons Fly.
Dryads can kind of fly.

But Dryads don't always fly, they can choose not to, and specialize in other areas.

Dragons would do much the same thing in their choices.

Same with 1/2 giants. They would have a quest to become a true Giant, the monsters that hunted dragons. Much like the Dragon RoP they would get bigger, inherent abilities (and problems so they would need to quest for a smaller form).

There would be 1/2 giants of many differences. Some focusing on fighting, some on stunning, some becomming "full giants". . .

For gnomes, Dwarves, Elves, and the rest (dryads included) there would be racial defining (ok they are shared for simplicity) abilities that they choose from. Want to fly, there is something else you can't do. Want a buffed up Dryad Dazzle, there is something else you can't do.


For on of the dragong choices it could be a speed vs power thing. Have a quest that adds to your inherent armor, but slows you down a bit. Or lowers your inherent armor but speeds you up (alacrity). Light fighter or heavy fighter. Tank or Monk? The ability to take "non-primal" abilities and cast their spells, but if you choose that, you can't take other abilities (because you have a limited set of choices to spend). Say +1 Armor per level but -5 to Alacrity, or -1 Armor per level byt +5 to Alacrity.

Dragon sprint, like Ssaris sprint (dragons have 4 legs), at the max dragon quest level it is as good as Ssaris sprint is now. Then add a Ssaris sprint quest that allows them to get better to (shared quests that add +x to stats, so if you are already fast, they make you faster).

Dwarven stubborness - Adds to armor slows them down (see dragon armor suggestion), but now dwarves get +1 armor per level (kind of like dragons).

Elven speed - lowers armor slightly but speeds them up (see dragon armor suggestion), but now elves get a built in alacrity.

There could be dragon regeneration that is based on the racial trait of regeneration, and then add quests to improve the racial regeneration.

Sslik underwater breathing, + to time they can be underwater. Perhaps they can walk on water like the dryads (i.e. swimming).

Saris Life ability - Up it to make it important, with quests to make it better.


so all in all, there would be a choice within classes, and a choice within races. Many abilities would overlap to save time, but fighters of different races would tend to converge, same with mages. There would be fighting type racial/class abilities, mage type abilities and crafting type abilities (larger cargo, faster alacrity at the cost of armor, speed bonuses).

All in all every race wouldn't be "dragon". It would be "warrior dragon of Life", or "Mage dragon of Ice and speed". It would be "Saris of speed". There would be more to the "bipeds" then just biped, and more to the dwarf then just dwarf. A dwarf could be the "Soloitary warrior, stubborn unto death, failing to give an inch" with abilities that add to that imagery. There could be Gnomian Tinkerer (additions to focus/power/dex to allow them to be the best tinkerers. Elven archers that are fast (alacrity/ranger & scout abilities).

All in all adding value to all the classes. Sure some lines get blurred, but the cool thing is when you look at a character it isn't just a "biped" it is a biped that has made choices.

A dragon isn't just another dragon, it is a dragon with something under the hood. Perhaps Ice, perhaps life, perhaps speed, perhaps tanking ability. . .

[Fireclaw]

Interesting ideas Refuse. I like the idea of giants being able to quest to become full giants.

However, if dryads had the option of flying EVERY dryad would take it. Even without any new power being added, a multi-100 biped can be incredibly powerful. If given the choice between even a sizeable combat buff or flight, I think every dryad would choose flight. Flight is the defining ability of dragons in Istaria. Even limited flight is well worth having ... especially to bipeds who already can become uber even without spending the proposed "points" on yet more abilities.

Also, while it is definitely true that dragons need added depth and choice so that every dragon isn't the same as every other dragon, it is not clear that additional choices are really needed for bipeds, who already have lots of choice in their multiclassing options. Rather than spending dev time adding and balancing unneeded diversity to bipeds and making uber bipeds even more uber, shouldn't they concentrate on things like finishing dragons so they aren't so wimpy and adding more world events for everyone?

[refuse]

Nope, I think they addin content for everyone.

Multi-classing is an option. Just like not doing RoP is an option.

There are many things to fix, and add to.

Last I checked I paid my subscription, and thus I can think that adding to bipeds is a good idea.

If the ability to fly is a dragon thing, and bipeds have the ability to multi-class. And you think that flight should be uniquely dragon thing, then why is multi-classing dragons brought up so much?

Sorry, everyone paying a subscription should get the ability to tweak their character. Mulit-classing is an option, not a requirement.

[Fireclaw]

The ability to multiclass is not the same thing as a dragon's RoP. First while almost all bipeds multiclass, it is not actually necessary (at least at mid levels) to do so. Bipeds can also choose which classes they wish to add and there is a small downside to multiclassing in the form of increased rating.

Not so for dragons with RoP. First, there is NO downside to doing RoP. Unlike multiclassing there is no ratings penalty. RoP provides only positive benefits with no negatives. As such, its not really a choice in the same way as multiclassing. A more accurate comparison would be to a single-classed biped who decides to simply only level up to 30 and not go higher and not multiclass.

RoP is a natural progression of being a dragon. The only diversity allowed is whether to go helian or lunus. Compare to bipeds who can choose from numerous multiclasses. Bipeds have VASTLY more choices than dragons do.

[LaiAhna]

I think that dryads should be able to fly and to have dazzle.

[Goriax]

It's your right to refuse to take an option (such as multiclassing or RoP) which would strengthen your character, but if you do you have delimberately gimped your character. Just like your warrior could go out without armor but he'd be crazy to do so.

They have to balance as if the character is played reasonably with the intention of being reasonably powerful given the time played. Just like they should balance warriors on the assumption they'll wear armor appropriate for their level, they should balance bipeds on the assumption that they'll multiclass where it would strengthen the character to do so. If you were given the option to become more powerful and refuse to do it, it's your fault. Nothing should be balanced on the assumption that players would deliberately gimp their character.

So if you want to remove multiclassing from the balance equation, the only way to do that is to remove multiclassing as an option -- or water it down a LOT so it no longer strengthens a character. Otherwise, you have the option to become more powerful and that must be in the balance equation. Whether or not you take that option is your choice. Bbut things must be balanced as if you will do anything reasonable to strengthen your character including taking the option to multiclass when it makes your stronger.

I was all for giving dryads some sort of limited flight although even on the first pass I emphasized the importance of balance. I would withdraw my support for giving dryads even limited flight if saw a strong movement to give them either unlimited (dragon equivalent flight) OR a movement to give them limited flight but make no other attempts to balance that out such that a dryad was allowed to get as powerful as a biped with the addition of flight.

Balance must rule. If you give dryads even limited flight you have to either take away something else, or give EVERYONE something too. Including dragons.

[Fireclaw]

It's your right to refuse to take an option (such as multiclassing or RoP) which would strengthen your character, but if you do you have delimberately gimped your character. Just like your warrior could go out without armor but he'd be crazy to do so.

They have to balance as if the character is played reasonably with the intention of being reasonably powerful given the time played. Just like they should balance warriors on the assumption they'll wear armor appropriate for their level, they should balance bipeds on the assumption that they'll multiclass where it would strengthen the character to do so. If you were given the option to become more powerful and refuse to do it, it's your fault. Nothing should be balanced on the assumption that players would deliberately gimp their character.

So if you want to remove multiclassing from the balance equation, the only way to do that is to remove multiclassing as an option -- or water it down a LOT so it no longer strengthens a character. Otherwise, you have the option to become more powerful and that must be in the balance equation. Whether or not you take that option is your choice. Bbut things must be balanced as if you will do anything reasonable to strengthen your character including taking the option to multiclass when it makes your stronger.

I was all for giving dryads some sort of limited flight although even on the first pass I emphasized the importance of balance. I would withdraw my support for giving dryads even limited flight if saw a strong movement to give them either unlimited (dragon equivalent flight) OR a movement to give them limited flight but make no other attempts to balance that out such that a dryad was allowed to get as powerful as a biped with the addition of flight.

Balance must rule. If you give dryads even limited flight you have to either take away something else, or give EVERYONE something too. Including dragons.

I agree completely.

[Loacalea]

If Dryad flight was limited no higher then the trees tops they will still be caught into battle.
They will be close enough to the ground thats mobs will still be able to attack them.
If you assist in limit make it that if they fly too high they will drop half way towards the ground.
This will give them a few sec to try to fly over something till they drop back down to there base flying lvl.
Unlike dragon with the limit on how high Dryad can fly they will never be able to fly over cliffs.
i agree they should be able to fly over water

[Fireclaw]

If Dryad flight was limited no higher then the trees tops they will still be caught into battle.
They will be close enough to the ground thats mobs will still be able to attack them.
If you assist in limit make it that if they fly too high they will drop half way towards the ground.
This will give them a few sec to try to fly over something till they drop back down to there base flying lvl.
Unlike dragon with the limit on how high Dryad can fly they will never be able to fly over cliffs.
i agree they should be able to fly over water

As a dragon, most of the time its unnecessary to fly higher than the tree tops. That's high enough to let you ignore most mobs essentially letting you traverse almost any terrain safely. Its also high enough to let you pass over all but the steepest cliffs. However, based on the way flight works in the game, its not enough to let you fly over ocean water.

[Jayne]

I was wondering about this recently. I though they could at least go across water..... I don't think they want to fly to high, they would get blown away by a small breeze! I always have to be careful when grouping with them. If there to close when I swing my axe, they get swept away from the swing, LOL.

Jayne

[Fireclaw]

I was wondering about this recently. I though they could at least go across water..... I don't think they want to fly to high, they would get blown away by a small breeze! I always have to be careful when grouping with them. If there to close when I swing my axe, they get swept away from the swing, LOL.

Jayne

The way flight works is your max altitude is based on your height above the terrain mesh directly below you. A dragon can fly to a max altitude of 200m. The tops of the treetops are maybe 20-40 m. Because altitude is measured from the terrain mesh below the dragon, a dragon can fly over even the steepest cliffs simply by flying right up to the cliff, then rising vertically and then moving in to hug the cliff again as the cliff gradually inclines inward.

Because max altitude is measured from the terrain mesh directly below the flying creature, a low-altitude dryad would not be able to fly over the ocean because your max altitude is measured from the sea floor. The deepest parts of the see floor are maybe 150m deep. When a dragon flies over deepwater, the dragon's max altitude is much closer to the water.