Moderators: Confectioner Issues.

[Nanain]

potions are potions...beer is drink...sorry if I stepped on ur toes, didn't know about the stat pots etc.
And why not have booze? we have taverns after all. and beer ellies

[kengar]

Kengar, but the t4 foods are capped experience-wise in their creation.

Right, which is what I meant by giving the confectioner something to do at higher levels. I should have put that better. This still doesn't mean that it shouldn't be rectified.

[Jayne]

Drinks sound cool! Elixier as you will. They can have different effects then potions.

Jayne

[gusi]

Ahh, alcohol, now you're talking! Beer could perhaps give +X melee damage with -X attack skill..? Wine gives +X spell damage with -X attack skill..?

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I'm gonna cut and paste all my suggestions from the other thread cuz I really did say it all there.

My personal wish list for improvements:[*]Times reduction should start at 7 minutes and go to 10 minutes[*]Missing formulae should be put into the game[*]Removal of Ambrosia Vendors[*]Removal or drastically decrease effect of waiting out DPs offline[*]Addition of combined food entrees such as platters, bounties, smorgasbord, picnic baskets, etc[*]Addition of beverages alcoholic and non-alcoholic[*]Addition of foods with non-DPR effects such as haste/alacrity, % chance to create a bonus item (an exact duplicate of what you are currently creating) while crafting, etc[/list]Things TG could do to keep Confectioner an unviable school:[*]Keep DPRs what they are[*]Don't bother or backburn them another year and a half for release of missing formulae[*]Leave the Ambrosia Vendors in[*]Do nothing about waiting out DPs[*]Make current and future food recipes even more complex and tedious than they already are by adding even more ingredients for a single food item[/list]And that's just a few things I can think of off the top of my head for both lists.

I'd also like to add to this that some beverages/foods also be given effects such as a damage shield (Dwarven Fire Water/Whiskey anyone?), increased (magic) evasion (Saris Sweet Milk), ethereal armor (Fiendish Wine), etc etc. Even just food/drink that gives nifty effects on a player model that is total fluff would be good. I don't know of ANYONE who wouldn't like to drink, say, a Fizzlepop Grape Soda to the effect of having sparklies surround them for 10-30 minutes. ;)

[Nanain]

mmmm imagine the parties! the bbqs...the beer gardens! If they buffed up our class, it'd add so much to the game, and make immersion easier.

[Unicorn's Lady]

Another thing that might help is to make it easier to know what foods work for your level. When I'm searching consigners for food, I have to look at the stats of each item to figure out if it's the right level of food. I don't know how to change this without immersion taking a hit, so I'm open to suggestions.

Hi Kengar!

I took a look over in the Schools forum and saw that there wasn't a published list, so this afternoon I expanded my old beginner food list I had written for Azure Twilight to include journeyman and put it up. Here's the link and I hope it helps you a little: http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=78019

And I did try foods for a short while but it didnt seem to do anything.

Hi Jayne!

I've just gotten back into working on Nellie's cooking (it's been since last autumn) so I'm fuzzy on the details, but to get food to remove some of the time from a DP you need to eat different types of food (such as a beef kabob followed by a gruok kabob) a few seconds apart (my memory says 10 seconds). And the food has to be of the correct level. Eating a beef kabob won't help a 30th level, they would need to eat a beef and carrot kabob. I hope this also helps! [:)]



Having the taverns give a boost to DP removal sounds like a good idea! And coming up with new specialty foods sounds great too! Just remember we shouldn't conflict with the alchemists. Ourspecialty foods at this time are:

• Beef Pasty.....Surge of Strength I (+19 Strength) for 3 mins.
  Candied Apples.....Apple Power (+10-15 Dex & +5-15 Evasion) for 2 hrs.
  Candied Carrots.....Surge of Focus I (+19 Focus) for 3 mins.
  Gruok Wurst.....Surge of Dexterity I (+19 Dexterity) for 3 mins.
  Pumpkin Pie.....Gift of Pie (+10-25 Health) for 2 hrs.
  Spun Sugar.....Swift Feet II (+8 Speed) for 3 mins.

Compare our Spun Sugar to the alchemists' Quint's Quickstep II, the QQII gives you +4 Speed for 20 mins.



Nellie Lovett/Ochre Tekton
of Azure Twilight in Carmo on Order

[Drevar]

I had a lot of ideas for Confectioner, some of which others have expressed as well.

First, while I would like to see multiple effects for different foods similar to Alchemy potions, I think the school needs to remain concentrated on its intended niche, being DP removal and the social/RP aspects. Perhaps limit the dessert type dishes, i.e. fruit pies,cakes, cookies, candies, etc. to being non-DP related.

I would love to see the Ambrosia vendors run out of stock. They have been low on stock fora year already. Recap Ambrosia VII, and give us VIII through X. Bring back more blighted resources and an actual use for them. The incidental harvesting of EoB will then be a true bonus. EoB bonus rates might of course have to be tweaked to prevent flooding the system and making Ambrosia too cheap and common.

As others have suggested, make forms for combinations of basic foodstuffs into complete meals. T1 could be very basic simple foods like bread or a fried steak. T2 would have more complex basic foods and basic combined meals using T1 (JM Food: Commoner's Meal =Carrot soup + a loaf of bread). Follow the same pattern until you get to full-on banquets at T6. The number of the tier would determine how many component basic foods would be combined. 2 for T2, 3 for T3, 4 for T4, etc. Not an absolute requirement, but a basic rule. There would be of course some foods that require few ingrediants but high skill to gather (rare/expensive spices) and cook.

Lift all of the level caps on food and simply have an increasing scale of minutes of DP time reduced. T1 basic foods remove1 to5 minutes, T2 basic 2-6,T3 basic 3-7, T4 basic 4-8, T5 basic 5-9, and T6 6-10. The complex foods would remove the totalminutes of the component foods + 1 minute per tier. This system combined with the previous suggestion would keep the low level confectioners in the loop, as the low tier foods would still be required for the higher complex foods and would not leave the lowbies making totally obsolete product.

Drinks, PLEASE, give us drinks, alcoholic and non. The Drunken Stupor effect is already in game and would be a lovely effect to add for those who tend to go overboard. *Glances at the Dwarves in the crowd* I would also like to see a synergy system with certain drinks and foods. Take wine for instance. Drinking a wine would add a short lasting effect that would double the DP time removedfrom the next same tier food. It would only work for similar tiers of food and wine; a tasty T5 seasoned prime rib meal goes perfectly with that T5 Elven Wine, but not so great with a T1 half fermented swill. At the high end of T6 this would allow a single meal + a good Wine to remove over 2 hours from a DP timer. Not as powerful as Ambrosia, but still a very viable option. Add in a % bonus for consuming in different tiers of taverns to increase thier social value as well.

One item I do differ with Snow on is making the recipes more complex and difficult. I firmly believe that anyone who took up the Confectioner school would absolutely LOVE having more ingrediants and formula variants to work with. That's simply the kind of playstylea person who would take the school loves. Give us more! More spices, more fruits, chocolate for crying out loud! More, more, more! make them rare, expensive, and high tier..fine! Just give them to us! Theproblem is that there is no reward for the set of ingrediants we have now. We have stuff that requires porting all over the world to get, but the resulting products are beyond dissapointing.

Finally, I have issue with the whole clay requirement. I would have prefered a set of tools, similar to the other craft schools, rather than all of the clay pieces we have now. Some of them would still be necessary, yes, but you don't need to make a totally new cooking pot for each batch of stew you make. Keep the bowls, skewers, and jarsand allow them to be recovered after the food is consumed, perhaps for trade-in discounts on your next food purchase. The pots, pans, sheets, spits, etc. would become full tools and replace the wood spoon and spatula we have now. Not as big an issue, I know, but it is sort of a pet peeve of mine.

Alchemist, Jeweler, and Confectioner are the three craft classes with probably the most potential for building fun, complex, almost mini-game-in-itselfsystems. What we actually got were pretty "eh" in thier implementation, severly restricted by the Forms system. Plenty of suggestions exist for working within the system we are stuck with. We just need to see them actually worked on. Finish the damned dragons and get on with the rest of the game!

Drev

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

One item I do differ with Snow on is making the recipes more complex and difficult. I firmly believe that anyone who took up the Confectioner school would absolutely LOVE having more ingrediants and formula variants to work with. That's simply the kind of playstylea person who would take the school loves. Give us more! More spices, more fruits, chocolate for crying out loud! More, more, more! make them rare, expensive, and high tier..fine! Just give them to us! Theproblem is that there is no reward for the set of ingrediants we have now. We have stuff that requires porting all over the world to get, but the resulting products are beyond dissapointing.

Oh don't get me wrong Drevar. I want more new ingredients and products to work with as well. What I don't want is for them to add any more ingredients than are already involved in current recipes to make them more laborious.

For example. A T1 Beef Pie currently takes Beef, Dough, and Pie Pans. That is all the ingredients it takes and it already requires 3 subcombines (the pans, the flour, and the dough). What I don't want to see is an artificial increase in the number of ingredients for this dish, or any other dish, and it be expected of us to 1) like it and 2) accept it as new content. So making the T1 Beef Pie dish take Beef, Dough, Carrots, Potatoes, Sauce and Pie Pans is not my idea of new content or fixing the school. It is unnecessary excess with the notion to placate us.

So sure, give us new ingredients but don't change the recipes for current food nor make new recipes any more complex than they need to be. If additional ingredients ARE added to existing dishes they better ******** well have added effect as well and not something that only last 3 minutes. It better be worth my while to have to labor even further to make the same dish I made for less ingredients before a change like this got implimented.

I hope that clarifies my point a bit.

[Nanain]

aye, we already have complex recipes, and compared to most other schools...erm...yes. When I explain what goes into making Ambrosia even, ppl go whoa! :)

[Vandellia]

However, now isn't the time for that in my opinion (not that anyone has suggested it in this thread). Since T4 foods are currently uncapped, the actual expert food forms aren't necessary for DP removal, just to give the confectioner something to do at higher level. Finishing off the jman food forms needs to be done, and expert food forms would be nice.

They have to add confectioner expert forms the move from 80 max forms to 100 max forms means that confectioners are limited to strictly clay to level their trade as they moved the 80 cap on food to 100 which makes making food unfeasable for a confectioner to leve off of.

[kengar]

They have to add confectioner expert forms the move from 80 max forms to 100 max forms means that confectioners are limited to strictly clay to level their trade as they moved the 80 cap on food to 100 which makes making food unfeasable for a confectioner to leve off of.

Which isn't contradicting what I said. I said that it wasn't needed for DP removal. I'm not saying that the lack of expert forms is justifiable, or that the class isn't a pain to level at higher levels. I'm in favor of them taking the time to rework confectioner, food, and the DP, at least some of which is supposed to happen after ARoP (according to more than one comment in IRC, at least one of the devs is going straight from ARoP to confectioner).

Heck, it's annoying that tinkerers don't have all their expert forms and they've got other options for leveling in the expert range, whereas confectioners are seriously handicapped at that level.

[Crazyfingers]

A confectioner, alchemist, and even tinkerer are basically the same thing. Alchemist and tinkerer differ by tools and potions, which have different uses. Basically all three put together crap to make something. So if alchemist makes potions and dyes, tinkerers make fancy gadgets and tools. I presume confectioners are supposed to be Cooks or Chefs. Mixing foods to make something. So food makes people stronger, more alert, more stamina, smarter, healthier, a fatass whatever. Problem is alchemist potions allready do this as do healer and cleric spells. So this has to be fixed. A Master Chefs food and beverage products most be better in some way than casting a buff or guzzling a potion.

Drop the alchemist potions that enhance attributes. Alchemist would still have dyes to make, reapers potions and adventuring enhancements. Add explosion potions that are one time deals. You throw'm and they blow ******** up. Im sure PJ could come up with a thousand and one potions for the alchemists.

Now add tier I thru VI food that buff strenght, health, dex etc for long periods of time. Say 4 hours. Convert ambrosia intoALE that must be used at a tavern.

Now make residential plots useful. Only way to make deathpoints delay faster over time, besides ambrosia is to logouton yourresidential plot or a community tavern.

Now delete ALL THE GIFT SPELLS, tough ******** they gone for the good of the confectioners. Healers and Clerics will still have buffs but if they want the uber, long lasting ones they better be nice to Vandelia.

Problem solved.

Redo the loot tables and bring on the Undead Hordes!

NimKhazad(on moderation for 60+ days)

[imported_tjl]

awesome ideas nim. convert the augmentations to food, brilliant.

[evilkarl]

aye, we already have complex recipes, and compared to most other schools...erm...yes. When I explain what goes into making Ambrosia even, ppl go whoa! [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Imo, These recipes are the way all forms should be. Every item except maybe armour should require more than one component armour being the exception because a suit is actually 12 parts.

Swords should require a blade, handle, hilt to be made seperately then assembled. Mauls should require the head made then the handle and assembled. Bows should require the bow then the string and then assembled etc. This way it would feel more like something is being created.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Nanain wrote:aye, we already have complex recipes, and compared to most other schools...erm...yes. When I explain what goes into making Ambrosia even, ppl go whoa! [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Imo, These recipes are the way all forms should be. Every item except maybe armour should require more than one component armour being the exception because a suit is actually 12 parts.

Swords should require a blade, handle, hilt to be made seperately then assembled. Mauls should require the head made then the handle and assembled. Bows should require the bow then the string and then assembled etc. This way it would feel more like something is being created.

I can definately agree with that. But what we're saying is that adding in excessively extraneous resources to an already labor intensive recipe is not "content" and should not be done just for the sake of adding it and calling it thus.

[Tzael]

Imo, These recipes are the way all forms should be. Every item except maybe armour should require more than one component armour being the exception because a suit is actually 12 parts.

Swords should require a blade, handle, hilt to be made seperately then assembled. Mauls should require the head made then the handle and assembled. Bows should require the bow then the string and then assembled etc. This way it would feel more like something is being created.

Gotta agree, recipes/formulas/thingumajigs should be reflective of the item being made. imo all beginner and jm confectioner formulas we've got are spot on for the food being cooked, and even more to the point, I enjoy making them because they are well thought out [H]Maybe it's cuz I do all the cooking in my household, the missus does occasional baking of cakes but meals and all other cooking are my domain and I've actually been inspired by some of the confectioner recipes in Horizons [;)]

Jerky is one that isn't 100% there, 50% salt, 50% other ingredients just isn't right for tier IV jerky. Sure, loads of salt as preservative but we dinnae want to kill our customers !

I wouldn't play as a confectioner if our recipes consisted of only 2 or 3 ingredients, tier I and II food does bore me slightly because of its simplicity, but it's all appropriate for the end products. I hope tier V food proves to be well thought-out like the existing foods [:D]

[kengar]

For those that haven't read the 7/13 Design Preview, confectioner attention is now officially on the calendar. I really look forward to it.