Lairshaping school suggestion

[Guaran]

The design preview information on the Lairshaping school showed that it gives 5 per level for Strength, Power, Focus, Dexterity, and Health.

Now to me that seems pretty darn low. Dragon Adventurer gets 7 per level in the 4 stats, Dragon Crafter also only gets 5/level. That one seems too low as well.

At least a couple stats should get some sort of boost from the Regular crafting school. Perhaps 8,9, or 10 str/level. Lairshaping could follow the same for Power.

Plenty of existing construction schools grant nice stat bonuses once you attain the higher levels. These crafting schools should be no different.

Propose:
Dragon Crafter:
8 Dexterity/level
8 Focus/Level
10 Scalecraft/level

Lairshaper school:
9 Strength/Level
9 Power/level

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

Craft school stats always add up to 20. You have to distribute those 20 points for a school that uses both magical and physical aspects and have it make sense.

[Tzael]

While lairshaping doesn't really apply to myself (I rarely play as my dragons, normally always on my main toon), I had expected to see at least one attribute get 8 or 9 points per level for the lairshaping school. I am guessing that there would not be many objections from the full-time dragon players if dragons got let's say 8 strength, and 4 each of power, focus and dexterity per level in the lairshaping school.

Sure, dragons have been getting a lot of love lately. Personally though I think that upping the gains for one attribute with the lairshaping school would be a nice reflection of the biped crafting schools. Power or strength gains per lairshaping level need to be upped imo [:)]

[Guaran]

My thoughts exactly Tzael.

It's up to the dev's to make it all 'fit', if there is a standard model to follow.
Dragon crafting doesn't necessarily equal biped crafting, so perhaps theres room for play. That would be up to the dev's.

If we stick to the stats total of 20 per craft level, how about these:

Dragon Crafter:
8 Strength
4 Dexterity
4 Power
4 Focus

Lairshaper:
4 Strength
4 Dexterity
8 Power
4 Focus


Really would make more sense to get 8 str and dex for crafter, 8 power and focus for lair/crystal shaping. The lairshaping seems more magical.


What this would allow or promote, would be the use of crafting to supplement adventuring somewhat, and vice-versa.

[Devast]

I really like the idea of changing the stat boost for both the existing dragon crafter and for lairshaper. If the devolpers are unwilling to change the existing school could we get some major change on lairshaping (maybe even avoid the 20 limit). While this would be more dragon love it would appear tobe a minimum investment in time to make the change which I believe most dragon players would welcome. Put most or even all the improvements into lairshaping school if you don't want many (maybe even most) to get a big instant boost.

Something that ended up giving us at least 8 per level in everthing but dex since dragons are big, strong, and VERY magical. Dex would be nice but I could see limiting it to no more than 6 per level. I think 9 or 10 per level in strength and either power or focus would be most appropriate.

I would love to hear from Manga, DB, or anyone at Tulga in the know about this issue.

Thanks,

Devast

[Dragoniade]

My thoughts exactly Tzael.

It's up to the dev's to make it all 'fit', if there is a standard model to follow.
Dragon crafting doesn't necessarily equal biped crafting, so perhaps theres room for play. That would be up to the dev's.

If we stick to the stats total of 20 per craft level, how about these:

Dragon Crafter:
8 Strength
4 Dexterity
4 Power
4 Focus

Lairshaper:
4 Strength
4 Dexterity
8 Power
4 Focus


Really would make more sense to get 8 str and dex for crafter, 8 power and focus for lair/crystal shaping. The lairshaping seems more magical.


What this would allow or promote, would be the use of crafting to supplement adventuring somewhat, and vice-versa.

Sound like a good idea. They could also balance the skills rather than keep them uniform at 7 per level for every shoo.

In the same order of idea

Dragon Crafter:
8 Mining
9 Scalecrafting
8 Smelting
6 Quarrying
7 Spellcrafting
6 Stoneworking
6 Gemworking
8 Transmutation

Lairshaper:
6 Mining
7 Scalecrafting
6 Smelting
8 Quarrying
9 Spellcrafting
8 Stoneworking
8 Gemworking
6 Transmutation

Dragon Crafter focus more into dragon related stuff: scales and metals (shiny ^^).
While Lairshaper focus more into the arcane and the Earth ressource (gems and stone).

I think that would quit solve some issues regarding the lack of balancing betwen dragon craftings

[Eni]

Maybe split lairshaper into 2 schools with 2 different focus skill lines (which would be hihger gain).

[Joaqim]

Maybe split lairshaper into 2 schools with 2 different focus skill lines (which would be hihger gain).

If so, high power gain for a crystal shaping school and high STR gain for a lair shaping school would fit well I think.

[Deth]

From what I have heard from Other game designers on changing stats, I.E. DAOC, It will not happen as their is just a programing nightmare. But Changing Lairshaping and the upcoming Crystalshaping school would be good I think.

Dragoniade I have to disagree I think the school skill wise are just find. They are balanced with the biped. Yes the Biped have more option but ours will come in time I feel. But thats just my option.

[Tarran of Chaos]

Why not just ask for 20 each stat, a few craft-based multistrikes with no recycle time, and a moon to fly to because logically once a dragon fliesover all ofIstaria there is nothing else he can do.

[Dragoniade]

From what I have heard from Other game designers on changing stats, I.E. DAOC, It will not happen as their is just a programing nightmare. But Changing Lairshaping and the upcoming Crystalshaping school would be good I think.

Dragoniade I have to disagree I think the school skill wise are just find. They are balanced with the biped. Yes the Biped have more option but ours will come in time I feel. But thats just my option.

I doubt it. After Lairshaper, what other school do you expect for dragons, crafting wise?
Dragon Miner? Dragon harverster?
If they do that, they simply contradict what they are defending vehemently: the dragon shouldn't be biped clone.

Don't forget that currently, our 2 schools have IDENTICAL skills stats. You're a level 100 crafter dragon? Don't expect to improve any skill you've already acquired by taking Lairshaper.

On the otherhand, if you would have leveled Blacksmith (the biped equivalent of Dragon Crafter), taking any other school would increase one or two of your 'Current' skills.

So, a reorganization of the skill points is in order. Unless they tell use that our current Crafter Mastery can be done for both class and are compatible.

Which make me wonders... Are the current Mastery abilities assigned to Dragon Crafter school or not? Will we lose their benefit by moving to Lairshapper?

[Deth]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Deth wrote: From what I have heard from Other game designers on changing stats, I.E. DAOC, It will not happen as their is just a programing nightmare. But Changing Lairshaping and the upcoming Crystalshaping school would be good I think.

Dragoniade I have to disagree I think the school skill wise are just find. They are balanced with the biped. Yes the Biped have more option but ours will come in time I feel. But thats just my option.

I doubt it. After Lairshaper, what other school do you expect for dragons, crafting wise?
Dragon Miner? Dragon harverster?
If they do that, they simply contradict what they are defending vehemently: the dragon shouldn't be biped clone.

Don't forget that currently, our 2 schools have IDENTICAL skills stats. You're a level 100 crafter dragon? Don't expect to improve any skill you've already acquired by taking Lairshaper.

On the otherhand, if you would have leveled Blacksmith (the biped equivalent of Dragon Crafter), taking any other school would increase one or two of your 'Current' skills.

So, a reorganization of the skill points is in order. Unless they tell use that our current Crafter Mastery can be done for both class and are compatible.

Which make me wonders... Are the current Mastery abilities assigned to Dragon Crafter school or not? Will we lose their benefit by moving to Lairshapper?

Well as to the next school that has been hinted at is Crystalshaping, to make Weapon, Tool (I assume we will be able to make these and maybe then also be able to use them, and Armour crystals.They will more then likely call it something else but thats just what I and most others are calling it right now.

Personally I would rather see a Dragon Miner/Gather type class rather then listen to the bipeds yell and scream over the fact they have to take 2 or 3+ classes to our taking 1 or 2 classes. Also I think it would be better for dragon and balance. It would allow us to diversify some. Yes they have said that we are not to be clones but then what are are classes now but piecemeal clones of biped classes anyway? A Dragon Miner/Gather class with slightly higher gathering skills in the materials we use now would not be a exact clone.

The abilities being assigned to Dragon Crafter I do not think it is a worry, or at least I hope so. I would assume they did like Disk and they are assigned to craft levels not class type levels.

[Tzael]

Requesting that the lairshaping school is split into two seperate schools, both with at least one high stat gain is getting a bit excessive in my opinion. I wholeheartedly support the idea of dragons getting one stat improved from the lairshaping school, but the existing stat gains for dragon crafter should be left alone, and the idea of splitting lairshaping into two seperate schools should be discouraged.

Like I said in my first post, I find it hard to appreciate why there isn't one high stat gain for lairshaper. Considering how naka duskael construction schools are set up, I think that providing one high stat gain for the lairshaping school is a fair thing to do.

[Guaran]

There's no reason against a stat re-alignment for the original Dragon Crafter school that I can think of. Any crafter who wants to max out their skill, HAS to max out thier adventure levels for the stat boost. It's basically true for biped schools as well, although in some cases the reverse direction, weaver gives 10dex/level back to adv, fitter gives 10 str/level back to adv. This is where multiclassing some craft in with adv gives a little boost.

Dragon adventurer is IMHO a rediculous copy of a biped adventure school, 7 or 8 str/level for a friggin Dragon? Realistically, the power, str, and hp's should be double or triple a biped's... Tell me how any of it makes any real sense.

We aren't really dragons. we are biped character copies with different appearance and abilities.


Now I'm not saying we aren't respectively powerful. but that wasn't always the case. Common sense corrections to those 3 base stats, long ago, would have gone a long ways.

Adult - 150% base power, str, hp's
Ancient - 200% base power, str, hp's

To me that is common sense.

[Tarran of Chaos]

Requesting that the lairshaping school is split into two seperate schools, both with at least one high stat gain is getting a bit excessive in my opinion. I wholeheartedly support the idea of dragons getting one stat improved from the lairshaping school, but the existing stat gains for dragon crafter should be left alone, and the idea of splitting lairshaping into two seperate schools should be discouraged.

Like I said in my first post, I find it hard to appreciate why there isn't one high stat gain for lairshaper. Considering how naka duskael construction schools are set up, I think that providing one high stat gain for the lairshaping school is a fair thing to do.

It should be 6 separate schools, cuz why should you be able to buildupon your plotwith less if every other race in Istaria has to take 6?

[Deth]

There's no reason against a stat re-alignment for the original Dragon Crafter school that I can think of.

AS I said I only have WHat other Developers have said for many many Years. I do not know how true it is or even if it is the same here. But in Darkage of Camelot they say that they can not change stats per level as it is to deep in the code and would cause too many problems. If it is diffrent here that would be great.



*Grabs a mirror and reflects some sunlight at Tarran of Choas*
Darn still not turning him to stone. Hmmmm maybe I need stronger sunlight?

[Dragoniade]

There's no reason against a stat re-alignment for the original Dragon Crafter school that I can think of. Any crafter who wants to max out their skill, HAS to max out thier adventure levels for the stat boost. It's basically true for biped schools as well, although in some cases the reverse direction, weaver gives 10dex/level back to adv, fitter gives 10 str/level back to adv. This is where multiclassing some craft in with adv gives a little boost.

Dragon adventurer is IMHO a rediculous copy of a biped adventure school, 7 or 8 str/level for a friggin Dragon? Realistically, the power, str, and hp's should be double or triple a biped's... Tell me how any of it makes any real sense.

We aren't really dragons. we are biped character copies with different appearance and abilities.


Now I'm not saying we aren't respectively powerful. but that wasn't always the case. Common sense corrections to those 3 base stats, long ago, would have gone a long ways.

Adult - 150% base power, str, hp's
Ancient - 200% base power, str, hp's

To me that is common sense.

We were mostly discussing Skill over Stats. Stats AND skills are ridiculously low. We don't master any skill, not even ours.

I think with the introduction of the new school, it could be time for Tulga to fix the dragon stats and skills.

We may be versatile, but all biped are too. That's not an excuse to give us skills that are ALL bellow every biped classes. Like you said Guaran, we're already a biped clone: a biped blacksmith clone, except with a different model, lower carrying capacity, but with no tools (which is good and bad)

[PJ]

An ancient dragon with level 100 crafter carries more then any level 100 biped in full cargo/satchel

5000 vs 4760

[Deth]

We were mostly discussing Skill over Stats. Stats AND skills are ridiculously low. We don't master any skill, not even ours.

I think with the introduction of the new school, it could be time for Tulga to fix the dragon stats and skills.

We may be versatile, but all biped are too. That's not an excuse to give us skills that are ALL bellow every biped classes. Like you said Guaran, we're already a biped clone: a biped blacksmith clone, except with a different model, lower carrying capacity, but with no tools (which is good and bad)

Dragoniade with our Quest we are not below all biped classes in all skills. We are only below Miner amd Gather. Once we get the Smelting and Stone working skill quest we will just be below a Normal crafter, non-gathering class, Biped in 2 Skills. Spellcraft and Scalecraft.The only one that should be bumped up is Scalecraft so we like all other crafts will have, after quest 10 in what shoudl be our main Craft skill of Scalecraft. I consider my self a spellcrafter but I still feel we should not have 9+1 quest in spellcraft.

[Dragoniade]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Dragoniade wrote:

We were mostly discussing Skill over Stats. Stats AND skills are ridiculously low. We don't master any skill, not even ours.

I think with the introduction of the new school, it could be time for Tulga to fix the dragon stats and skills.

We may be versatile, but all biped are too. That's not an excuse to give us skills that are ALL bellow every biped classes. Like you said Guaran, we're already a biped clone: a biped blacksmith clone, except with a different model, lower carrying capacity, but with no tools (which is good and bad)


Dragoniade with our Quest we are not below all biped classes in all skills. We are only below Miner amd Gather. Once we get the Smelting and Stone working skill quest we will just be below a Normal crafter, non-gathering class, Biped in 2 Skills. Spellcraft and Scalecraft.The only one that should be bumped up is Scalecraft so we like all other crafts will have, after quest 10 in what shoudl be our main Craft skill of Scalecraft. I consider my self a spellcrafter but I still feel we should not have 9+1 quest in spellcraft.

Even with our quest, we still are stucked with fixed stats with no way to improve ourselve.
Quests were supposed to counter our lack of multiclassing. But all quests does is putting us par with the lowest crafting school out there.

I don't mind if they make us work to get us extra point (heck, I want to work). But they should give us a way to do so. Let us keep the already gained Crafting quests, and let us do them again with a new school. Have us do extra quest.

With our quest, we should be able to compensate for what multiclassing give to every other race.

And don't forget that Biped got twice the amount of techable slot that a dragon can have. This too, lower greatly our skills. Biped can equip fully teched armor and jewelry to increase their already high skill. We only get half of them.

I'm maxed out in crafting, Without using a crafting scales, I couldn't even craft optimally the lowest of our Tier 5 scale, not even spells. Any level 100 dragon should be able to craft optimally their lowest Tier 5 item, just like any other race can.