Guild Communities Proposal Discussion

[gopher65]

First, as Zexoin stated the 3 month old time limit would exclude the newly formed Unity player guilds as well as any other guilds that were formed for legitimate reasons prior to draft rule set being published. I understand why this is being suggested but it would exclude players unfairly. It is likely that the new guilds established for legitimate reasons would be excluded when these are the very guilds that need the plots.

Yup. There are a few guilds of Unity players have have popped up on Chaos. Hopefully that will be accounted for somehow.

Second, Please define "active" player? someone that has a paid account or someone that has logged in X period of time? What about alternate characters that may be in different guilds?

"Active" *always* means "Active, paid account".

Fourth, The one guild plot per guild limit could be juggled it would violate the spirit of the rule but not break the rules as they are written. E.g. an existing guild with a guild plot could sell that plot to an alt in a nameless guild. The nameless guild may not be eligible but the original guild now would be. That being said I understand why it's being suggest but I do not see how this can be enforced.

I think that's what the "has to be older than 3 months" policy is to avoid. But there are some alt guilds around that are older than 3 months. Personally I can't see any way to avoid possible exploitation of this loophole if people really wanted to get around the problem of owning multiple guild plots.

I can't see many people wanting to do that though. Remember, you still need to have paid accounts for every plot on the Guild Community. That's a lot of accounts to pay for 0_0.

Sixth, What about larger guilds? they may have legitimate needs for more then one guild plot as some guild plots only have 4 or 5 plots. Guild mergers could result in more then one guild plot where both groups are well established but still need new land.

Possibly true.

Also, I'm concerned that some of the Guild Communities (alright, all of them) have wee little tiny plots. You can't do much with those tiny plots, even if they're free.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

I've got to admit that I'm not following much of what you've said here, but I'm going to try to respond as best I can.

First, as Zexoin stated the 3 month old time limit would exclude the newly formed Unity player guilds as well as any other guilds that were formed for legitimate reasons prior to draft rule set being published. I understand why this is being suggested but it would exclude players unfairly. It is likely that the new guilds established for legitimate reasons would be excluded when these are the very guilds that need the plots.

I've already said that this is something we're considering. I hear and understand your concern, in other words, and those of others.

Second, Please define "active" player? someone that has a paid account or someone that has logged in X period of time? What about alternate characters that may be in different guilds?

Active subscription to hold the plot.

I'm not sure what you mean by "what about alternate characters that may be in different guilds". How does this apply? If you are the holder of the Guild Community Key Plot (and I'm going to start calling it that as to reduce some confusion), then you should be a member of that guild the the community is for.

Third, If an inactive player owns a master guild plot and that player owns a guild master plot they would in effect prevent a guild from purchasing the community they want. Would this mean we would have to eject them from the guild? What about if this player is active? I personally wouldn't want to tell a guild member they are not allowed to own a particular plot and must sell it or they will be thrown out of the guild.

Huh? This is where you really lost me. If an inactive player holds the Guild Community Key Plot, what we're saying is we will first attempt to transfer that Key Plot to someone in the guild who IS an active member.

Why would you tell an active member of your guild that you're throwing them out of the guild, or that they can't own a particular plot? We are only talking about a single plot in the case of this proposal, though all plots in a guild community will be reclaimed with regular plot reclaim in order to allow them to go to active members of the guild's community.

Fourth, The one guild plot per guild limit could be juggled it would violate the spirit of the rule but not break the rules as they are written. E.g. an existing guild with a guild plot could sell that plot to an alt in a nameless guild. The nameless guild may not be eligible but the original guild now would be. That being said I understand why it's being suggest but I do not see how this can be enforced.

How could they sell the plot to a character in a nameless guild? First of all, that nameless guild would have had to have existed for some period of time. Second, it would have to have at least 5 members in it. Third, it would have to remain a guild with that many members in order to keep the community. So they would, in effect, have to have created a new guild some time period ago, and no longer be a part of their current guild. Yes, they could turn over an existing guild community to a new guild... but that new guild would have to stay.

Fifth, I am sure that some people own plots they are holding because it was the best they could get under the current situation. In some cases these people would be willing to sell the plots they have should they get the plots they want but not give up what they have unless they know it is an option. The current rule set does not consider this.

You are correct. This proposal has nothing to do with normal, regular plot reclaim. It is TOTALLY about the Guild Community Key Plot, nothing more.

Sixth, What about larger guilds? they may have legitimate needs for more then one guild plot as some guild plots only have 4 or 5 plots. Guild mergers could result in more then one guild plot where both groups are well established but still need new land.

This is a concern that has been raised previously, and as I said, I don't have a good answer for you. This will give an opportunity for larger guilds who have many active players to perhaps purchase the currently un-used large communities that are being held by inactive guilds.

I guess what I'm saying is that you're looking at worst case scenario, and no one really has any idea if that is going to happen or not.

Seventh, As stated previously how would a master guild plot shift back to a guild master if that guild master already owns a plot? (Guild plot, Master guild plot, or normal plot)

Again, huh? This proposal ONLY applies to Guild Community Key Plots where there is no active player subscribed to hold it. If there is an active subscription holding the plot, then it doesn't apply.

Eighth, some guild have established plots but plots are now owned by players that have joined other guild. This in effect prevents the guilds from growing on those communities as all that is left may be plots that are two small to effectively use. Guild masters really need a way to enforce that these plots can get returned to the communities on leaving that guild. It would help make some guild lands more useful again.

Again, this only applies to one plot per community... the key plot.

I'm not sure that what I've said really addresses your concerns because I don't know that I've followed you with all of them, but I've tried.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Also, I'm concerned that some of the Guild Communities (alright, all of them) have wee little tiny plots. You can't do much with those tiny plots, even if they're free.

Totally off topic. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Please keep this thread to discussing the Guild Community Proposal Discussion for how Guild Communities will be reclaimed.

[awdz]

Any plots in a community that are owned by inactive accounts will have those plots reclaimed immediately and marked for guild-only sale. Prior to this process, we will honor guild leader special requests to have guild plots manually sold to specific guild members to avoid the plots being on the open market.

Does this mean subplots belonging to inactive accounts in communities where the master plot is owned by an active account are going to be flagged for sale? If so, does the guild get to keep the structures on the subplot, or at least have warning before it gets wiped clean?

We have a number of subplots where members have not logged in for quite some time, I have no idea what their account status is, but our guild would be hugely put out if we just lost all the work we put into building those structures (and contents). Ideally, I'd like the inactive guild subplots simply flagged for sale to other guild members but structures not destroyed.

[LaughingOtter]

Awdz, normally the plots are just set to be for sale. The buildings on the plot are unchanged. You still have to be a member of the owning guild to buy one.

[Zexoin]

Totally off topic. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Well I think that's an important point, to tell the truth. If guild plots were larger, people would be less tempted to try to own multiple master guild plots. I know that you've limited that by not allowing a guild to hold more than 2 master plots, but that's still a problem ; a small guild with about 10 people could try to own 2 master guild plots, because they don't have enough room on the guild plots, which would leave lots of small plots in those communities vacant. If those sub plots were larger, that guild wouldn't need to own multiple master plot, beause one community would be large enough for ther need. I hope you get what I mean, it's 1 am now and I'm too tired to speak clearly >.>

[Karya]

Totally off topic. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Please keep this thread to discussing the Guild Community Proposal Discussion for how Guild Communities will be reclaimed.

Actually, I believe that Gopher's concern (and I'm sure others as well, including myself) about the small plot sizes is not completely off topic.

One of the points of actually having a guild land is to have useful and worthwhile land for a guild. Well, if a guild key plot is holding onto so many 25x25 plots, why would anyone want that guild land? Perhaps it'll be for just the one or two useful plots or the lairs that might be there. I see so much guild land that is wasted (even for active guilds!) because guild plots aren't fulfilling the needs of the guild mates, and therefore they look elsewhere anyways. What player is going to settle for a tiny 25x25 plot (which they need to purchase at least a gifted subscription for) when there is much larger elsewhere, even at a higher cost? What good is the land to the guild then?

Plot reclamation isn't just about the process... it's also about the end result in which guilds can get land that they need. Guilds need land for storage and crafting (if they so desire) so how many pieces of land need to be purchased by the guild mates in order to make this happen if the plots are mostly 25x25? How many guild mates want to buy land JUST for guild needs? I don't think there would be many that would. I know that on a 25x25 plot of land one can fit a t1 guildhouse, 2 tents and maybe a couple of trees. How would that effectively help a guild for storage needs? What about the players own personal needs? I wouldn't want to fathom how many plots it would take to build crafting shops and silos when they are mostly 25x25.

Although the focus may be on just the key guild plot, the other plots need to be taken into account since it is a part of the "package" that comes with the main guild plot.

I believe that this is an issue that should also be addressed along with the plot reclamations.

Sincerely,

Karya
Chancellor
The Annatar

[T-Sar-Goth]

I've got to admit that I'm not following much of what you've said here, but I'm going to try to respond as best I can.

I've already said that this is something we're considering. I hear and understand your concern, in other words, and those of others.

Active subscription to hold the plot.

I'm not sure what you mean by "what about alternate characters that may be in different guilds". How does this apply? If you are the holder of the Guild Community Key Plot (and I'm going to start calling it that as to reduce some confusion), then you should be a member of that guild the the community is for.

I was referring to the comment that "- A guild must have at least five individual active players in its membership to be eligible. (This is actual player accounts, not subscriptions.)" active players can have different characters and they can each be in different guilds. With this being the case what determines "active" for that rule?

Huh? This is where you really lost me. If an inactive player holds the Guild Community Key Plot, what we're saying is we will first attempt to transfer that Key Plot to someone in the guild who IS an active member.

Why would you tell an active member of your guild that you're throwing them out of the guild, or that they can't own a particular plot? We are only talking about a single plot in the case of this proposal, though all plots in a guild community will be reclaimed with regular plot reclaim in order to allow them to go to active members of the guild's community.

One of my guild mates owns a guild plot. And I would like a chance to get one of the reclaimed plots for my own character which is a guild master. The guild plot owned by the other member is not adequate for guild usage (The lack of anything dragon) but suits the players needs perfectly. By the draft of the rule set you provided my understanding is that I would not be eligible for my own character to try to purchase a guild plot as the guild already holds a plot. My options would be A) eject him from the guild so the guild no longer holds any guild plots B) Ask him to sell his plot. if he is active in which case again results in the guild not holding any guild plots or C) Do nothing and do not get a chance to get a reclaimed guild plot.

In the case of the above situation if that player was inactive and I did not want his plot yet I had the open slot what would happen then?

How could they sell the plot to a character in a nameless guild? First of all, that nameless guild would have had to have existed for some period of time. Second, it would have to have at least 5 members in it. Third, it would have to remain a guild with that many members in order to keep the community. So they would, in effect, have to have created a new guild some time period ago, and no longer be a part of their current guild. Yes, they could turn over an existing guild community to a new guild... but that new guild would have to stay.

Assume for a moment the following. I own an account with 2 subscriptions. I own 1 master guild plot in a guild called "Bob". I do not own any other plots.

If were to make a new character today. With this character I create a new guild. Would I be able to sell a master guild plot from the character in the "Bob" guild using the player to player selling feature of a plot? If I could then the new character would now hold a guild plot where as the one in "Bob" would now not hold any guild plot. If the sale would actually be blocked then it is a different matter entirely. It would effectively cripple a new guild until the probationary period is over and who would want to join a broken guild?

You are correct. This proposal has nothing to do with normal, regular plot reclaim. It is TOTALLY about the Guild Community Key Plot, nothing more.

The point I am hoping to make is the following. I've created a new guild. There were only a few guild plots open at the time the guild was formed and even if the plot is far less then ideal owning one guild plot is better then not owning anything. Now based on this draft rule set because I own at least one guild plot I am not able to try for one of these guild plots?

If I knew without a doubt I could get the guild plots I wanted I would gladly sell my existing guild plot. But since I do not know I need to decide if I want to risk loosing the less than ideal plot, again the only guild plot my guild has, for have for a chance to get what I want. If I take the gamble and lost I've just hurt my guild.

This is a concern that has been raised previously, and as I said, I don't have a good answer for you. This will give an opportunity for larger guilds who have many active players to perhaps purchase the currently un-used large communities that are being held by inactive guilds.

I guess what I'm saying is that you're looking at worst case scenario, and no one really has any idea if that is going to happen or not.

Just because it is the worst case scenario it isn't still a possibility. For this to occur based on my understanding of the current rule set the larger guild would need to first sell their existing plots. It's a gamble many would not take as it would cripple a guild if they didn't get the plot the larger plot. They may not have an ideal spot but they would be forced to settle. How could a larger guild take the chance of selling there guild plot for only a chance to get one of the few larger plots available. If they loose they may not be able to get back what they sold to take that chance.

Again, huh? This proposal ONLY applies to Guild Community Key Plots where there is no active player subscribed to hold it. If there is an active subscription holding the plot, then it doesn't apply.

.

What would happen in the following cases:

* inactive member owns a master guild plot. guild master owns a regular plot. No other members in the guild are eligible to own a plot. would the GM be notified that have an option or would the plot be sold back to the community?

* inactive member owns a master guild plot. guild master does not own any plot but has enough money for it. Would the plot automatically transfer? or would the GM have a chance to decline? Who gets the money when the plot changes hands? the former owner?

What I'd like to understand is what would happen in each case of various members owning plots some with the rank of guild master and others without.

Again, this only applies to one plot per community... the key plot.

Allow me to clarify my concern using the previous example. I am in guild "Bob" and invite "Fred" and "Tom" to join my guild. They each buy one of the few plots that are open on the guild community for 1 silver each. The next day both of them leave the guild and based on the current system they would keep their sub-plots. The members and GM of "Bob" has nothing they can do to return those sub-plots to guild control. If the one master plot per guild rule is to be put in place there needs to be some way to address this. otherwise as people join and leave guild it effectively makes communities less valuable as precious space can be used by someone that has nothing to do with that guild.

I'm not sure that what I've said really addresses your concerns because I don't know that I've followed you with all of them, but I've tried.

I'm hoping to continue this discussion so we may clarify how this will affect everyone.

Respectfully your,
Tsargoth

[LaughingOtter]

Karya,

At the risk of sounding snippy, if a guild community does not fit your guild's needs, you don't have to buy one. I'm sure any number of other guilds out there would be delighted to have a chance at one.

Players have been asking for the abandoned guild communities to be reclaimed for ages now, small plots and all. Now that the reclaim is almost here, we should call it off for a couple more months in order to make the plots bigger?

Sorry, but personally, I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

[Zexoin]

Karya,

At the risk of sounding snippy, if a guild community does not fit your guild's needs, you don't have to buy one. I'm sure any number of other guilds out there would be delighted to have a chance at one.

Players have been asking for the abandoned guild communities to be reclaimed for ages now, small plots and all. Now that the reclaim is almost here, we should call it off for a couple more months in order to make the plots bigger?

Sorry, but personally, I don't think that's a reasonable expectation.

Why are there still some guild communities for sale on Order then ?

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Why are there still some guild communities for sale on Order then ?

Because the communities don't suit the needs and desires of the guilds on Order.

There are a great deal of plots for sale on Order, some quite large, actually. Why? Because no one on Order wants to buy them.

Just because something is for sale on one shard doesn't mean it isn't valuable on another.

Why are there so many plots for sale on Blight? Because the community of players isn't large enough to purchase them all, that's all.

[Zexoin]

Because the communities don't suit the needs and desires of the guilds on Order.

There are a great deal of plots for sale on Order, some quite large, actually. Why? Because no one on Order wants to buy them.

Just because something is for sale on one shard doesn't mean it isn't valuable on another.

Why are there so many plots for sale on Blight? Because the community of players isn't large enough to purchase them all, that's all.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but if there are none for sale on Chaos, it's not because they have different needs than us on Order, it's mostly because they have no choice, there are none other and better own a small useless plot than nothing. it doesn't change the fact that those plots don't suit the guild needs, though.

[Karya]

I didn't mean to get everyone riled up about this matter. It is great to see that guild plot reclamations are happening and I appreciate that. There are some good areas out there that are already taken and inactive. Perhaps after guild plot reclamations there can be time to improve those plots. It's just going to be a fight to get some of the better guild lands out there for the time being.

Karya

[Amarie Ancalimon]

I'm going to ask nicely once again to please bring this thread back on topic.

The topic of this particular discussion is on the Proposal for how to deal with reclaiming Guild Plots.

It is NOT about the usefulness of plots in guild communities as they stand now. This thread needs to be kept on topic so that those from the development team who are in the position to make the policy decisions (which is again what this thread is about) can follow it without wasting time. Plot sizes, what makes a community useful or not, etc, are design elements, not policy elements.

From hear on out such posts will be removed from this thread.

Thank you for understanding and respecting the topic.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

if a guild owns 5 master guild key plot at this time (i know there are some and they use them just for being large normal plots as well)

they could simply make sure that all these master key guild plots where on accounts that are not guildmaster. and then kick those players from guild at the time of the 'drawing'

would these players with guild master key plot on their name be able to join the guild again after the drawing?

people would have to sell their guild master key plots before they can join a guild owning a master-key-plot-guild?

what would happen with existing guilds that own more then one key-master-guild-plot?

[Unicorn's Lady]

I'm pre-apologizing for my questions, but I'm very tired and some of this is muddled to me.


Just a few weeks ago a majority of the members actively playing (we have several still with active accts. but aren't logging in-game) of our guild requested that we merge with another guild. So our Guild Master, who happened to also own the key guild plot, passed the command of our old guild over to me (one of my secondary characters, since my one of my main characters owns an important plot to the guild town), to answer any returning guildies' questions and to be available to access the key stores on sleeping members plots. He then resigned from our guild and joined with the other guild as a regular member, so that most of our guild town plots could be merged with the other guild.


By doing this have we now botched things up for the guild we just merged with? They are a large, active guild, but I think they have a guild plot with an inactive acct. owning the main plot.

If so, should we have our ex-Guild Master rejoin the old guild, reinstate him as the Guild Master, and then after the reclaimation, then have him pass command back over to me again & again join the guild we are trying to merge with?

[Adwene]

Amarie, I am not sure but I think some of the confusion is coming from the idea that people might lose plots that are already owned by someone in the guild if no one meets your requirements.

If I understand what your trying to say - all guild key plots owned by a guild will stay in the guild as long as someone marked as a guildleader (there can be more than 1 guildleader in the guild) has a free plot spot on their account.

Firstly, maybe you should make it so that its not limited to guildleaders, but to people designated by the guildleader. Any of a certain rank perhaps?

Also I think people are bringing up a valid point in that if they currently have a guild plot, they won't be eligilable to upgrade that guild plot. This may lead to people somehow removing the plot from their guild.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Firstly, maybe you should make it so that its not limited to guildleaders, but to people designated by the guildleader. Any of a certain rank perhaps?

That's basically what we're doing here, but the guild rank happens to be that of Guild Leader. This way we can easily query and contact all guild leaders who hold Guild Community Plots in case there are issues with the guild's community.

Also I think people are bringing up a valid point in that if they currently have a guild plot, they won't be eligilable to upgrade that guild plot. This may lead to people somehow removing the plot from their guild.

I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding why you would not be able to "upgrade" if you have a guild plot already. I'm not following how this proposal applies at ALL to moving.

What I read (and I've now read what I wrote multiple times) totally has to do with whether (and how) a Guild Community plots will be reclaimed from inactive accounts.

Perhaps the confusion here is with the later portions of the proposal. So let me clarify (maybe?). IF you have active subscriptions holding your guild community (or multiple guild communities), none of this applies. Stated another way: This proposal only applies to guild communities where no active guild REALLY owns the community.

To put it by example:

Scenario 1: Guild Disney (community name) was purchased by character Mickey in guild Mouse's Rule in March, 2006. Mickey isn't guild leader, Goofy is. Mickey, Goofy, Donald, Daisy, Huey, Duey and Luey all own plots in the Disney. But since 2006, Huey, Duey and Luey all have left Istaria to go play ToonTown Online. That leaves only 4 active people in Disney, but Mickey is one of them, so nothing is going to happen to their guild community. Huey, Duey and Luey will have their plots reclaimed, though, and those plots will then be available for sale to Moe, Larry and Curly. Moe, Larry and Curly joined the guild just last month and have been waiting and hoping for a plot in Disney, so everyone's happy. But even if the "stooges" hadn't joined Mouse's Rule, Disney would have stayed with their guild because Mickey has an active paying subscription.

Scenario 2: Guild Warner (community name) is owned by Bugs, the guild leader of Looney R Us, but he too has left Istaria for ToonTown. Daffy, Pepe and Taz still own guild plots in Warner, and don't want to lose their community. They write to the amazing people at Virtrium and ask for us to promote Taz to guild leader (because no one else is available to) and transfer Bugs plot to Taz. Taz no longer owns the plot he had before, but he owns guild plot, and Warner remains with the Loonies.

Scenario 3: Guild Vilad (community name) was owned by someone in Ehcadaeh but no one from Ehcdaeh still plays Istaria. So every plot in the community is reclaimed. Guild Looney is not eligible to move to this community because they only have 3 members, but Guild Mouse's Rule is thanks to the "stooges". So they see that Vilad is up for sale when Virtrium posts a list, and emails the appropriate amazing person at Virtrium and says "We'd like to move to Vilad," putting themselves in the bidding for this community. Since no other guild wanted Vilad, Mouse's Rule wins it. Everyone from Mouse's Rule moves over to Vilad using a procedure we have not yet said anything about , and they all live happily ever after.

Sometime later, Looney realizes that Disney is still up for sale and unclaimed, and in a coup that rocks Istaria for years, Looney Tunes take over Disney.

(All names in the above scenarios have been changed to protect the innocent... or perhaps not so innocent. And obviously from the choice of names, this CM needed more sleep than she got last night. )

[Amarie Ancalimon]

I'm pre-apologizing for my questions, but I'm very tired and some of this is muddled to me.


Just a few weeks ago a majority of the members actively playing (we have several still with active accts. but aren't logging in-game) of our guild requested that we merge with another guild. So our Guild Master, who happened to also own the key guild plot, passed the command of our old guild over to me (one of my secondary characters, since my one of my main characters owns an important plot to the guild town), to answer any returning guildies' questions and to be available to access the key stores on sleeping members plots. He then resigned from our guild and joined with the other guild as a regular member, so that most of our guild town plots could be merged with the other guild.

By doing this have we now botched things up for the guild we just merged with? They are a large, active guild, but I think they have a guild plot with an inactive acct. owning the main plot.

If so, should we have our ex-Guild Master rejoin the old guild, reinstate him as the Guild Master, and then after the reclamation, then have him pass command back over to me again & again join the guild we are trying to merge with?

Why or how would you have "botched" things with the other guild? They've existed prior to you merging with it, it sounded like from your post, so no "three month" rule.

They own a guild community already, but need to have the key plot transferred to someone who is active, granted, but they can do that before any of this goes into effect by emailing the address that we have yet to publish for help with this sort of thing. Someone in the large guild should be at least acting as guild leader, right? And someone with high enough rank at least invite does exist. So they're good.

As for your smaller guild... why would you need to transfer back? Someone with an active account (you) owns the key plot in the guild community you wish to hold, correct?

Again, perhaps the confusion is that we're for some reason going to do this with ALL guild communities.

This proposal only applies to those communities where no one is active in them.

[Vlisson]

- A guild must have at least five individual active players in its membership to be eligible. (This is actual player accounts, not subscriptions.)

i dont like to see a difference between subscriptions and accounts. that seems not fair