Talk to the Team: Biped Construction Schools

[Velea]

I hear the concerns about some schools (Enchanter and Weaver) being under utilized and thus it is much harder to level those than the others, and that is something that at least I had not taken into consideration when making this proposal. That is, admittedly, not something I know how to address right off the top of my head without making major changes to structures to require a more balanced set of materials.

I also hear the concerns that Free Access or Basic Access players would be at a disadvantage under this new system, but the honest answer is that you should be at a disadvantage if you don't own a plot. Not unable to join the schools, of course, but at a disadvantage. You can play as a dragon with Basic Access and can level lairshaping, but it takes longer to do so than if you owned your own lair. These are construction schools and thus if you aren't doing construction actively, you should take longer to level the schools. I realize this isn't going to be a popular statement I just made, btw, but please remember that flame-posts will be deleted when responding.

Keep in mind that the experience-per-unit is much, much higher under the current Lairshaping system than it is under the current biped-construction system. And though you can gain experience currently in other ways, nothing you craft gives nearly the experience per unit than current construction experience, and that isn't even close to lairshaping. (It is something like double the exp per unit between making tools and making construction resources, and then double again for lairshaping.)

Also, the 20%/80% break down Amon listed above is just what is presently proposed, not set in stone. That is just how the lairshaping system is.

Unfortunately there's no way to change the system so that there is one school for bipeds for construction without making the current multiple schools obsolete. And I'm sure that no one wants to have to level all over again their construction school, so that idea is right out. ;)

But please, keep the ideas coming. Not saying we've made a decision one way or another on this, so we'll keep talking. :)

[Tzael]

I do not see the clear benefit to the change from what the system currently is. Can you explain why this change is needed?
...<Snip>...
Please help us to understand the trade off better.

The answer to this is what everyone needs to know. We're seeing too many unnecessary changes being proposed or introduced without good reason (did anyone ask for Guardian abilities to be overhauled? Nope. Did anyone ask for Blight Hounds to be completely reworked? Nope. Did Fyakkis or Fiery Dire Wolves really require a name change? Nope. I won't go on but we all can cite from a multitude of recent examples of changes that were unnecessary and have actually taken away from gameplay instead of contributing to it).

I hear the concerns about some schools (Enchanter and Weaver) being under utilized and thus it is much harder to level those than the others, and that is something that at least I had not taken into consideration when making this proposal. That is, admittedly, not something I know how to address right off the top of my head without making major changes to structures to require a more balanced set of materials.

Nonsense, enchanter and weaver are not underutilised. Enchanter has a booming trade supplying resources for alchemists - don't change this by simplifying the system and making enchanters a one-trick pony. Ever worked on a library? Okay so T2 is only a hundred spheres and 150 sources, but then it's 600 of each for T4. Guild houses have a tonne of both weaving and enchanting work to be done. Vaults, small, medium and large all offer a significant amount of experience for both Weaver and Enchanter.

A lack of experience for these schools is the fault of players who insist on filling a plot with tonnes of silos. If people plan their plot to look pleasant instead of looking like silo city then they will be able to earn experience across all construction schools. In fact recently when I levelled all my construction schools to 100 it was Carpenter that lagged behind the other schools, not Weaver or Enchanter.

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I'm not sure I like the idea of construction schools losing out on their secondary purposes. As most have already pointed out there isn't always enough construction work to go around. The developers would be required to regularly introduce new community structures for players to contribute towards in order to placate the lack of player-defined construction work that is prevalent in current-day Istaria should the ability for Weavers to earn experience from backpack pouches be removed, or Fitters making metal tools.

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I have to agree with the sentiment expressed by others in this topic - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! The only thing I can say to counter that perspective lies within my first statement in this post - if we understand why these changes are being proposed then we can collaborate with the developers towards making an improvement. Chucking "proposed changes" out here with no reasoning behind them, no explanation of what's broken and needs to be resolved, well I just don't see how that can lead to a viable, useful and enthusiastic outcome.

[Guaran]

It's been the way it is for over 10 years.

I think I would be for the idea, removing the exp from bars and bricks while in the Const schools, <IF> the exp gained from making bars bricks while in miner also gets a big boost. And orbs, spools, etc get a big boost for the Gatherer school. Those are some of the grindiest schools out there, so boosting their exp at the same time would likely be an improvement.

Everyone is freaking out about loosing the bars exp, but its actually fairly small exp. And the exp for making the individual construction materials will probably get a huge boost. I don't have exact number examples for Lairshaper, but it was in the thousands for making + applying, per unit. The resource processing exp is what, 70 exp per mithril bar? less? I remember it being tiny. That's why leveling miner was such a pain.

So if they look at it all together, the change could be a good thing.

Someone should test out the exp given on a few materials and post it here, a mithril bar, shining orb, radiant orb, yew brace, applying 1 unit of yew brace, and then some equal tier lair materials to give an idea of what the exp would be after the change.

I do also have some of the same concerns that certain construction schools are less evenly used, spheres (Enchanter) are not used in many things, like lamp posts, tents, silos might not even take them.. forget exactly where they are left out, but I know there are examples.

[Tzael]

Someone should test out the exp given on a few materials and post it here, a mithril bar, shining orb, radiant orb, yew brace, applying 1 unit of yew brace, and then some equal tier lair materials to give an idea of what the exp would be after the change.

Good idea, here is a run-down of experience gains for Fitter school, my base smelting is 900 and base fitting is 1000 (Miner is only level 86 at the moment so skills are all off Fitter school). I picked a tier V resource since I'm at optimal skill level for making the resources and applying the units.

Creation	Craft x 1	Exp per Bar
Mithril Bar	137	137
Mithril Construction Sheeting	1044	69.6
Mithril Construction Jointing	767	38.4

Application	Structure	Resources per Unit	Bars per Unit	Experience	Exp per Bar
Mithril Construction Sheeting	T5 Silo	2	30	1995	66.5
Mithril Construction Jointing	T5 Silo	2	40	3735	93.4
Mithril Construction Sheeting	T5 Storehouse	2	30	2672	89.1
Mithril Construction Jointing	T5 Storehouse	2	40	4151	103.8
Mithril Construction Sheeting	Human Clocktower	1	15	6730	448.7
Mithril Construction Jointing	Human Clocktower	1	20	12313	615.7

This shows us that there is definitely a need to look at the Fitter experience gains because previously reported anomalies still exist, but I don't think it warrants an overhaul to the way construction schools gain experience. I'd wholeheartedly encourage the correction of the anomalies that are apparent with regards to current skill gains, but I still have reservations about the need to overhaul the schools any further.

[jerk-o]

I was thinking of the quests handed out by the gnome in the imperial outpost that give you imperial rank tokens for t6 construction materials and had an idea: Have the trainers for the construction schools give out repeatable quests that give the player some xp and money for making and turning in construction materials. Have the xp reward be half to two thirds of the xp you'd get for placing the materials on a plot and have the money reward be one silver per teir (t1 would give 1 silver, t2 would give 2 silver, etc.). The quest dialog would say something about supplying construction materials to the empire. This would help the players that don't have/can't find any construction work to level off of to still level at a (somewhat) reasonable pace and also be able to make some money off of it.

[Dacurly]

I think the build system is fine the way it is, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

[Velea]

So a few of you have asked why this change is being considered, and my thought is "Fair enough", so here is the reasoning why.


It's already been pointed out that the experience given for different structures is different on biped construction. There are some structures which are simply bugged and are (in general) giving far more experience than others for applying the very same resource. This is actually what first caught my attention and made me look into it closer. It didn't seem right to me that simply because some players are "in the know", they would know to make Structure X repeatedly over Structure Y when leveling a particular tier or resource. Simply because no one has bothered to report the bug because the particular bug is beneficial to players doesn't mean that it isn't a bug.


So note that those structures will be fixed for a future update.


But then I looked at Construction experience versus Lairshaping experience and noticed a real inconsistency. Lairshapers get more than double the experience for the same skill level when applying resources to their lairs. And it's pretty close to the same for simply crafting the resource, with lairshapers getting one and a half to twice the experience.


So no, other than a few structures here and there that are bugged, there is nothing "broken" per se about the system unless you consider that there are some real oddities in the system relative to one another. All the documentation actually exists for changing the biped-construction schools over to using the primary skill system, so the work has already been done and calculated. It was just never something that someone had the time and inclination to implement. And as I was working in the crafting system already on other projects, I thought I'd take a look. :)

[Cooolios]

Make a constant invasion or something that destroys an outpost or something and I'd support this. Need something to work on. I miss the old giant crafting days.

[Vahrokh]

But then I looked at Construction experience versus Lairshaping experience and noticed a real inconsistency. Lairshapers get more than double the experience for the same skill level when applying resources to their lairs. And it's pretty close to the same for simply crafting the resource, with lairshapers getting one and a half to twice the experience.

Despite that, I find triple more tedious building a lair than building a plot. There are a number of "out of band" factors that imo work as an equalizer between those two different ways to approach building.

[Guaran]

Good idea, here is a run-down of experience gains for Fitter school, my base smelting is 900 and base fitting is 1000 (Miner is only level 86 at the moment so skills are all off Fitter school). I picked a tier V resource since I'm at optimal skill level for making the resources and applying the units.

Creation	Craft x 1	Exp per Bar
Mithril Bar	137	137
Mithril Construction Sheeting	1044	69.6
Mithril Construction Jointing	767	38.4

Application	Structure	Resources per Unit	Bars per Unit	Experience	Exp per Bar
Mithril Construction Sheeting	T5 Silo	2	30	1995	66.5
Mithril Construction Jointing	T5 Silo	2	40	3735	93.4
Mithril Construction Sheeting	T5 Storehouse	2	30	2672	89.1
Mithril Construction Jointing	T5 Storehouse	2	40	4151	103.8
Mithril Construction Sheeting	Human Clocktower	1	15	6730	448.7
Mithril Construction Jointing	Human Clocktower	1	20	12313	615.7

This shows us that there is definitely a need to look at the Fitter experience gains because previously reported anomalies still exist, but I don't think it warrants an overhaul to the way construction schools gain experience. I'd wholeheartedly encourage the correction of the anomalies that are apparent with regards to current skill gains, but I still have reservations about the need to overhaul the schools any further.

There are definitely some weird variations on the EXP... maybe that was something they could address in a revamp. Can anyone post a few t5 lair pieces creation and placement exp, and also add in the exp/bar calculation too? (that's handy)

My feeling is that the exp (if dev's make the primary skill change) would be equivalent to (or even a bit higher) than the exp currently given for the human clocktower, across the board for all materials in all schools if they went to a primary skill system.

End result would be faster leveling, as long as you actually built something. I think this point was the main push for the change. Currently someone could level mason without ever having done actual masonry work. Just grind out 300k bricks or whatever and max out mason school. I can see the point for changing it. And they (should) add more exp into the create/place steps than the exp lost in making the bars/bricks, so the net result is faster leveling.

I like jerko's idea about the old oaks quartermaster, who gives quests for construction mats and rewards silver and a imperial token.

Having something similar for all the lower tier materials, that gave say half the placement exp plus coin would be a great idea. That way the players would get the increased exp for crafting the construction material, and then some bonus exp for turning them in for the quest, without having to have a structure to apply it to. The way those quests work, a player could drag a cargo disk full of say wood braces, and turn it in over and over getting exp until they empty the disk. So say the quest might call for 5 oak braces, and reward in craft exp, the exp for placing 2 units (4 pieces) plus maybe a little coin. Regardless of what they do with the schools, having these quest options would be great in any event.

[damger]

I'm not in favor of this proposed change. I especially don't like the justification for the change being a comparison between bi-ped and dragon schools being the basis of the change. There is just too great a risk of unintended consequences when comparing a multi-school system (bi-ped construction) versus a single school system (dragon construction).

Right now I like having the choice of switching between miner/gatherer and a construction school or just staying in the construction school while harvesting resources and creating building parts. There are times I want to take advantage of this choice when I want to emphasize leveling miner/gatherer. Then there are times I don't (like when building for coin) and wish to have all the exp applied to the construction school. Please don't limit my choices in this regard.

That said, if you want to better equalize the exp gain for bi-peds in comparison with dragons, then, 1) introduce more community construction projects, AND, 2) reintroduce exp/coin quests with the construction trainers like the old days.

The last thing I want to see is a move towards a dragon-like single construction school system for bi-peds. Bi-ped lore just won't support it, if you get my drift. Bi-peds are naturally multi-discipline creatures if given the choice.

[Terao]

The building schools are fine as they are now. Add some more Enchanter and Weaver stuff to the buildings - give us some new structures to build (a larger variaty racial houses) - and we are happy.

[awdz]

The building schools are fine as they are now. Add some more Enchanter and Weaver stuff to the buildings - give us some new structures to build (a larger variaty racial houses) - and we are happy.

*agrees* I particularly appreciate being able to build off skills already acquired through other classes, but also like the current level of class-only skills and the xp they give.

[Korchak Strongbone]

Not really sure why we drudged up a thread that was 2 months old but, I still don't think the crafting experience gained as it is today needs to be looked at. I guess that's why I worked so fast to finish all of them, TWICE. No longer do I need any experience but, that doesn't mean I want others to suffer the change.

I'll say this, Istaria is hands down the best crafting system in the world of MMO's and for that reason alone, why would you even think about changing it? The only changes I've seen to this game as far as craft is concerned has been to make it easier ie; Lowering opt on T6 so now people want T7, removing the alloys in the game so now it only takes one resource to make building materials. If people think it is too hard there are other games they can flourish too, but from what I've seen once you learn the system in this game you tend to love it.
-Kor

[Guaran]

Not sure where all the hate is coming from. Schools level faster when changed to primary skill. Miner/Gatherer level rate is unaffected.

I'm not in favor of this proposed change. I especially don't like the justification for the change being a comparison between bi-ped and dragon schools being the basis of the change. There is just too great a risk of unintended consequences when comparing a multi-school system (bi-ped construction) versus a single school system (dragon construction).

Not sure what made you think this was a dragon vs biped thing. It's not.

Right now I like having the choice of switching between miner/gatherer and a construction school or just staying in the construction school while harvesting resources and creating building parts. There are times I want to take advantage of this choice when I want to emphasize leveling miner/gatherer. Then there are times I don't (like when building for coin) and wish to have all the exp applied to the construction school. Please don't limit my choices in this regard.

Your construction schools would level faster if they changed it.

That said, if you want to better equalize the exp gain for bi-peds in comparison with dragons, then, 1) introduce more community construction projects, AND, 2) reintroduce exp/coin quests with the construction trainers like the old days.

The only thing that brough up the exp equalizations was comparisons of one biped structure vs another biped structure. There are some wildly varying exp amounts given depending on the structure.

The last thing I want to see is a move towards a dragon-like single construction school system for bi-peds. Bi-ped lore just won't support it, if you get my drift. Bi-peds are naturally multi-discipline creatures if given the choice.

Again, not what this is or ever was about.

The very first school given the Primal skill treatment was a biped school, Confectioner. Then Lairshaper, Scholar (pretty sure during the revamp), and finally Crystalshaper.

You get about triple or quad the exp to apply items with this method, it more than makes up for the missing exp from the smelting, stoneworking, etc. I know I went from 85 to 100 DLSH just finishing a T5 Hall. 1 Building. At least I was actually building something.


All that said, The existing layout has been in place for 12 years. Don't see why the biped schools need to be made easier at this point. Just fix the Human Clock Towers' crazy exp (probably needs lowered by 75% to make it match the rest of the structures) and be done with it. Dev time would likely be better spent on new quests/lore/epic spells, etc.

[Ming]

I agree with above post that Dev time could be used other ways. I love the biped crafting. It's not broken. There could be more uses for the cloth tapestries and bolts, perhaps, but that's all I can see that's wrong. So, how about, after ALL this Time, some Tier 6 techniques? That might make crafters happy.

[Spyrioyo]

I agree there should be Tier 6 Techniques. Improvements and changes can be used in other places than here.

[Calyndrell]

I agree with above post that Dev time could be used other ways. I love the biped crafting. It's not broken. There could be more uses for the cloth tapestries and bolts, perhaps, but that's all I can see that's wrong. So, how about, after ALL this Time, some Tier 6 techniques? That might make crafters happy.

I have never been particularly fond with changing the construction schools for the most part they work just fine (although making the structures worth the same amount I think is a step in the right direction). However my biggest concern atm is there sheer number of bugs that have crept in over the last 6 months. And (this might be presumptious) but I think I speak for the community at large when I request that time be focused in ironing out those before changing existing (none broken) content.

[Velea]

We have gathered all the information on this particular topic we need, so closing the thread.

[Spyrioyo]

I'm not sure its a good idea like other people mentioned some people cannot afford or able to get a plot need to factor in all scenarios.