The battle for Epic mobs

[GalemThawn]

We are not talking about camping-but monopolizing

We are not talking about competition- pls no eyewash with words

Fair enough on the camping. Camping has to be done by all groups. The fact that one group camps more than other groups is really inconsiquential. Some groups are at the top of the game and this is the only real challenging content left and items to acquire. Camping it itself may be a problem for some, but not the base of this problem really.

Given the right group to go against Group B, it would be a great competition for the mob and monopolization could not happen.

However, my point still remains that some people will never be in the league to compete in the arena, not because of skill, but because of equipment.

Don't bring a little league team to a AAAA high school and honestly expect to win. Although in that condition it would be about skill more than equipment. Even at the top of my skill, I can't compete against someone who can is also top of their skill and doing double my damage. There is no competition in that.

I'm told the best weapon to use against Reklar is Valkor's Blood Sword (at least for Paladin). I can get one of those and one day hope to. One day I hope to get an item similar to a BMH. Then I'll welcome some good, honest competition for mobs.

[Creme]

And Creme, thanks for the corrections on number of people there.

Might want to delete that, apparently correcting you on the group composition was not allowed, my sincerest apologies for trying to clarify a misrepresentation.

BHM would not enter into the equation if there were a clear cut pull; as it would not have been put to use at all, had it not been down to nanoseconds.

[GalemThawn]

To correct myself on group composition:

Group A had 5 dragons, 2 healers and 1 cleric.
Group B had 3 dragons, 2 healers, 2 paladins.

Group A possibly had 1 or 2 more dragons that I missed.

Thanks to Creme for providing the correct numbers for group B.

[Creme]

You are welcome Galem

[Justa Mirage]

I am sorry Galem, but this can only turn into a flamefest...

Creme obviously belongs to CNA which means that he will defend his take on this thread until it is locked. I no longer desire to go epic mob hunting anymore as there are no epic mobs, only epic campers who monopolize the game. This topic has been brought up time and time again with no support from VI.

There have been heated arguments that spill into public channels about this, and just reading the drabble makes me ill. Reminds me of the school bullies that kick people to the ground for their lunch money so they can have it all.

Someone mentioned the post about "when the labyrinth comes, maybe some people will get a fair shake at epic type loot." What they fail to realize is, when that does go live, you will not escape CNA and you will have to battle the monopoly there too. It will be no different.

The only way to stop this has already been posted. Make the first hit lock the mob to that group / person, get away from the "most damage wins" scenario and it will solve a LOT of problems. If group A was lucky enough to hit Reklar with a bow shot, quick cast spell, or ability before group B, then group A should get the rewards, even if group B decides to help with the take-down.

There is only 1 problem with first damage lockdown, it only stops camping certain mobs. If you have 2 groups of 10 trying to take down an epic mob, and they are cooperating, the team that gets the first hit will be the one doing the /random tallies from the second group and delivering the goods to who won from either side. If this is the case, pick the team with the most honest and trustworthy well known player to divvy the loot up. I was on a Reklar team once where a certain individual removed the loot, there was silence, the player said nothing, people were doing /random rolls, then that individual recalled. Came to find out later he "distributed" the loot to only the players in his guild that were in the 10 player group.

The "monopolized camping" of the mobs on chaos have been a sore subject for a long time, and there are 3 sides: the Apathetic (We give up on Epic Mobs as there is no hope for getting to do them), the Angry villagers (We need to have the campers removed), and the arse kissers (Plz, plz plz let me into your group so I might have a chance 'a very very slim chance' at the quest item drop.)

Unless VI does something on "loot ownership determination" of mobs, this argument will continue.

[Abraxes]

The only way to stop this has already been posted. Make the first hit lock the mob to that group / person, get away from the "most damage wins" scenario and it will solve a LOT of problems. If group A was lucky enough to hit Reklar with a bow shot, quick cast spell, or ability before group B, then group A should get the rewards, even if group B decides to help with the take-down.

What do you think the system that we are currently using is? It's exactly what you just said. Maybe you should see how things are going down before you post something on a thread about it.

[Silverblaze]

I can honestly say I'm NOT a memeber of the CNA guild.

I have hunted with them however.

Its very simple, every game that is very successful has camping, its not a bad thing, its normal. We have some serious gamers on HZ, thats not wrong either, the fashion in which the mobs have been implemented makes it necessary to utilize them the way they are...that is where reform is needed, not in play style.

I'm sorry if that offends people, but I am speaking some generally true things in this post.

[Lothir]

<<DELETED BY MOD>>

Learn to compete, become better at pulling, deal more damage, get more members.


One day... Just one day... You may get the kill, then you'll stop bickering saying "OH THE CAMPERS" which just translates into "We didnt try hard enough, now lets whine until we get some free $%*# handed to us by VI, simply because we can never be good enough."

[Abraxes]

I no longer desire to go epic mob hunting anymore as there are no epic mobs, only epic campers who monopolize the game.

I, alone, can think of at least one or two times that Creme has helped your guild out with Fafnir/Daknor hunts, which those mobs ARE "epic mobs." I'm not speaking for Creme here, but I'm just saying, for you to say that you have "given up on hunting epic mobs because of epic campers" is 100% untrue. Not only did Creme help you guys get the kill(s), she also didn't even ask for any of the loot.

[gopher65]

Just for reference, an "Epic" mob isn't a boss mob. It is a mob that drops "Epic" weapons. Anything that doesn't drop something unique isn't relevant, because no one wants to kill them.

[MarshDog]

Ill make the offer again to anyone that wants to try to hunt these mobs,
feel free to copy to Blight server and Ill make you what ever armor you want free of charge and Ill loan out board hide mask to who needs them, to hunt them.
Andy.

[Shian]

<<DELETED BY MOD>>

Learn to compete, become better at pulling, deal more damage, get more members.


One day... Just one day... You may get the kill, then you'll stop bickering saying "OH THE CAMPERS" which just translates into "We didnt try hard enough, now lets whine until we get some free $%*# handed to us by VI, simply because we can never be good enough."

Not always the case. Believe it or not, there are some casual players that would like to try epics for fun and a change of pace.

As much as I don't like them, I'm looking forward to an instanced zone so that all players get a shot at trying something new. "for the experience"

[Abraxes]

Ill make the offer again to anyone that wants to try to hunt these mobs,
feel free to copy to Blight server and Ill make you what ever armor you want free of charge and Ill loan out board hide mask to who needs them, to hunt them.
Andy.

What's up Ruf! Sspiteful here. Long time no see, I may have to stop in blight some time again and chat with ya for a bit.

[gopher65]

As much as I don't like them, I'm looking forward to an instanced zone so that all players get a shot at trying something new. "for the experience"

Linky to where it says it will be instanced?

[Justa Mirage]

I must have struck a nerve, people with < 30 post counts are now jumping all over my post.

I am sorry "Shut Up" only works in Market Place, not here. I agree some of the people that complain about the campers on Chaos don't choose the right words, call names, and spew words that can easily be twisted.

I am stating the truth, I don't "need" to come watch, I already know what goes on, why must I painfully watch it over and over?

I have been on this game since Beta, and never left the game. I remember when the epic mobs came out and how it was fun to get into groups and fight them. Those days are over on Chaos. We aren't defeating the in-game mob, we have to defeat the organized guild that monopolizes the mob, which makes them a mob as well. Unfortunately this game only has the arena for PVP, so there is no way you can eliminate one mob, to get to the epic mob.

I am not starting flames here, only stating fact. The days of forming groups to take on an epic mob are over. As Shian stated, casual players who don't have epic gear and want to experience the high level content the game has to offer, cannot do it unless they are favored by the campers. Players should not have to play by "the campers" rules in order to enjoy the in-game content provided by VI.

If it gives them an ego boost to know that anyone in the game has to go through them in order to fight the high end epic mob content, so be it. There are no rules in the game that say they can't do what they do. Legally it's ok, ethically it's wrong.

Making an environment that causes unrest in a community vs. other players harbors discontent and hate. I don't like catering to either of those emotions. I have read both sides, I have heard both sides.

I have no suggestions to quell the ongoing battle between the campers vs. the players. Suggesting they get better to beat the campers makes the campers "the mob to beat" and is an incorrect solution. When it was suggested to change the loot system to first hit / loot lock, that pinched a nerve or 2. Being threatened in a fashion that could possibly end the epic camping seems to have brought out some new posters trying to quell the idea. This happens in MP as well. Anyone making waves are immediately told to "shut up" and get better (btw that argument gets droll every it's heard).

Is this the community that you want new players to enter into the game seeing?

/gets off his soap box

[Creme]

I must have struck a nerve, people with < 30 post counts are now jumping all over my post.

When it was suggested to change the loot system to first hit / loot lock, that pinched a nerve or 2. Being threatened in a fashion that could possibly end the epic camping seems to have brought out some new posters trying to quell the idea.

I would suggest that an easy fix would be to lock mob aggro so that whichever group engages it first, gets the kill/loot unless they wipe. LOTRO is set up this way and I feel it is a good system.

This would solve the killstealing accusations and leave no doubt as to which group did pull first.

I suggested that actually and wholeheartedly hope that it gets implemented (or I wouldn't have suggested it).

[Abraxes]

Hahahahaha, you comment on my post count. ;p Sorry I dont' celebrate, and post about, everyone and their dogs' birthdays, Justa. ;>

[Silverblaze]

at the risk of adding to the reasons to close a thread....

it is a flame...its even more of a flame to pick on post count. like post count matters...I have less than many maybe its becuase I say worthwhile things...speak when it matters, when i have something relevant to add.

I play horizons, I spend little time on the forums, perhaps thats why I achieved more than most beta players...not that I started much after beta...a week.

I've always had this mind set...playthe game dont post about it, you'll get more done.

I agree "shut up" was probably not only a poor choice of words but made the arguement seem irrelevant regardless of the fact it made some good points.

btw, shut up doesnt work in market, nor in real life...at least on me.

[Steelclaw]

Buh. Let me get this straight.


According to Galem, the problem lies not with camping, not with the players, ... but with a lack of stupidly powerful epic gear?


I have to disagree with that. Even if everybody had stupidly powerful epic gear, there would still be complaints about the same players camping and hogging spawn, using macros to get the first strike, using bots, invisible logins, cheating, witchcraft, voodoo, satanic worship, animal sacrifice, performance-enhancing controlled substances, and hair growth products. Why?


Because they get fperjrq out of the loot.


One of the factors involves a group of players (not referring to any of the established groups), who invest their time in camping and resources (and possibly death points) in fighting the epic boss, only to be told they can't loot. If I spent hours waiting for a chance to get an epic drop, then didn't get one, you can bet I'd be cvffrd off. Whether it's because someone else did the most damage, got the first hit, or if the corpse despawned before it could be looted. Either way, I'd be extremely unhappy that I didn't get a chance to /roll, despite being at the fight, despite participating in the attack, despite spending my hoard, and despite having died to earn a shiny 28h death point or three.


That brings up a second factor: players who treat other players in a manner inconsistent with good gamemanship. Yes, the rules don't say you have to be friends with everyone, they don't say you can't camp, they don't say you can't be a(n) nffubyr. However, that doesn't make it okay to be a(n) nffubyr and violate the spirit of the rules of conduct without breaking the lettering.


Put the two of those together and it's a powerful insult. Not only did the player get fperjrq out of the loot, but the people responsible for it are rubbing it in their face.


No, the problem is far more complex than a lack of stupidly powerful epic gear. It's a human problem, a problem of groups fighting for dominance and control in a game that is cooperative, not competitive. The long term solution is to stop this behavior, either by a voluntary behavioral change, penalizing the offending parties, or playing some cat-and-mouse game with rules and game mechanics.


I strongly urge the involved parties to settle their issues in the former manner, since the latter two have undesirable repercussions that may affect everybody on all shards.


So what should have happened in the situation brought up by the OP? I'm not sure, but I don't think anybody would complain if everybody present rolled, each member of the 'losing' group(s) rolled 1-100, each member of the 'winning' group rolled 1-120, and the loot went to the highest roll.

[Abraxes]

Buh. Let me get this straight.


According to Galem, the problem lies not with camping, not with the players, ... but with a lack of stupidly powerful epic gear?


I have to disagree with that. Even if everybody had stupidly powerful epic gear, there would still be complaints about the same players camping and hogging spawn, using macros to get the first strike, using bots, invisible logins, cheating, witchcraft, voodoo, satanic worship, animal sacrifice, performance-enhancing controlled substances, and hair growth products. Why?


Because they get fperjrq out of the loot.


One of the factors involves a group of players (not referring to any of the established groups), who invest their time in camping and resources (and possibly death points) in fighting the epic boss, only to be told they can't loot. If I spent hours waiting for a chance to get an epic drop, then didn't get one, you can bet I'd be cvffrd off. Whether it's because someone else did the most damage, got the first hit, or if the corpse despawned before it could be looted. Either way, I'd be extremely unhappy that I didn't get a chance to /roll, despite being at the fight, despite participating in the attack, despite spending my hoard, and despite having died to earn a shiny 28h death point or three.


That brings up a second factor: players who treat other players in a manner inconsistent with good gamemanship. Yes, the rules don't say you have to be friends with everyone, they don't say you can't camp, they don't say you can't be a(n) nffubyr. However, that doesn't make it okay to be a(n) nffubyr and violate the spirit of the rules of conduct without breaking the lettering.


Put the two of those together and it's a powerful insult. Not only did the player get fperjrq out of the loot, but the people responsible for it are rubbing it in their face.


No, the problem is far more complex than a lack of stupidly powerful epic gear. It's a human problem, a problem of groups fighting for dominance and control in a game that is cooperative, not competitive. The long term solution is to stop this behavior, either by a voluntary behavioral change, penalizing the offending parties, or playing some cat-and-mouse game with rules and game mechanics.


I strongly urge the involved parties to settle their issues in the former manner, since the latter two have undesirable repercussions that may affect everybody on all shards.


So what should have happened in the situation brought up by the OP? I'm not sure, but I don't think anybody would complain if everybody present rolled, each member of the 'losing' group(s) rolled 1-100, each member of the 'winning' group rolled 1-120, and the loot went to the highest roll.

But...why?