Talk to the Team: Stuns

[AmonGwareth]

This is a thread that is related to the Clarity2 discussion here. The basic idea is that Clarity2 is a band-aid that attempts to cover a wider problem which is the over-use of stuns among monsters (and players, though to a lesser extent) creating perma-stun situations. Removing the large number of obvious perma-stun situations (for example, by removing Paralyzing Gaze from a huge number of monsters) will go a long way to improving gameplay and fun.

So, what are we asking for your help with? Easy, here are the goals of this thread:

• Request player feedback regarding potential changes to a wide range of Stuns (both player and monster abilities)
• Request player assistance in tracking down all of the monsters that stun too frequently

Currently, we have identified three areas that we'll be addressing, but we're asking for your help with identifying others in order to speed up the process.

Admittedly some of these have less impact overall than Paralyzing Gaze, but they create situations where the monsters are no fun to fight and in some cases create a barrier to entry (such as with the Muck Crabs). The ones we're going to address (or have addressed) already are:

• Paralyzing Gaze - Removing it from the majority of non-boss monsters, lowering the duration of the Trepidation debuff
• Thundering Strike - Appeared to have the capability to continue indefinitely and repeatedly stun. Will be correcting this to be a single stun.
• Ogre Cry - Will be making this non-stun entirely, instead it will be a Mind DoT.
• Muck Miasma - Will be making this single target instead of AoE.
• Area Spellbind/Spellbind - Make sure that the duration of the buff is 15-30 seconds, shorter than the recycle of the ability that gives it.
• Clarity2 - AoE short-term immunity to stun/mez.

Would appreciate your feedback, comments, suggestions on this. Thank you.

[Northwind]

Well, people are used with the system so why change it? Did anyone rage-quit due to it? I sincerely don't think so.

Yes, perma stun happens, you die, ressurect, etc.
I must admit that, with a strong DAoC background, i was quite baffled the system allows that many stuns with no stun immunities. For example in DAoC even a 2s stun would give you after expiration a 60s stun immunity buff.
But I got over it and i started to like it and to find ways to counter it. For me it is part of the game and is one of the aspects that makes it entertaining and dangerous. Remember it's a PVE game, you cannot get adrenaline rush from pvp so what's left? Venture amongst the undeads and various other nasties that can and will kill you.

When I was set to hunt perma stunners (ogres or skulks for comps) i used to ask for a clarity buff - that is till i leveled my own sorc. Stun Problem solved. That didn't made me immortal - I still died a lot - way too manyt times I'd say.
But I rarely run with a Clarity II buff up so running into a stunner can really spice things up.

Removing all or even most of the stuns from the game to justify the alteration of Clarity II is not the answer, imo

[AmonGwareth]

Removing all or even most of the stuns from the game to justify the alteration of Clarity II is not the answer, imo

Good thing that isn't the reason for these changes then.

I must admit that, with a strong DAoC background, i was quite baffled the system allows that many stuns with no stun immunities. For example in DAoC even a 2s stun would give you after expiration a 60s stun immunity buff.

I agree, that would be ideal. Unfortunately I don't have the tech to do this... YET. If or when I do I'll certainly be adding it to both monsters and players.

Remember it's a PVE game, you cannot get adrenaline rush from pvp so what's left? Venture amongst the undeads and various other nasties that can and will kill you.

Yes, but perma-stuns are not the way to do this. If they were then the big MMOs would do it, but they don't. Better monsters, better mixes of spawns, etc should be what we are going for instead.

[LOVWYRM]

First thing: I agree with Nortwind in all points!

Though I hate to be stunned and watch my drags die without being able to do something-
I love the challange the way it is.
Don`t think that there is always a Sorc available to give me ClarityII.
Most of the time I have to face the mezzes and stunns alone.
With good tactics- you can survive or even win.
That does NOT mean that I could or want to live without ClarityII the way it was.
But I could deal with the suggestion Amon made for it in another thread.

And please do not change any other things (like discribed above)- I think we all need a break from *hmmmm* that atm.

I speak for Flame/Lupus here too.

(btw: Carrion Crawlers are nice stunners too^^)

[Flameus]

I want to add something:

Please consider: Its not only the vet-players who dislike clarity II and stuns to be changed in any way
(because they never want anything to be changed at all ^^ :-P)

The newer player also agree with us here.

[Ssilmath]

Eh, consider me a veteran player who hates mob stuns. Get two ogres on you and spend the next 5 minutes slowly getting beaten down and unable to recall away. It's incredibly frustrating and is an example of fake difficulty. Bring on the changes to stuns, let's make things more enjoyable for people.

[terrox]

As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .

[awdz]

As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .

I too would hate to see lightning arrow changed. I have never gained clarity as an ability, so I do not know what it is like to avoid their stuns save by making sure I have alacrity so that I hit them first.

[AmonGwareth]

As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .

This illustrates the very reason that stuns need to be addressed. The only way you felt you could play the game was to have an immunity to them. That means they are too common. Thanks for posting that. As someone said up above, perma-stuns do not make a game challenging or difficult, merely not very fun. Creating difficulty through better monsters with various tactics or abilities is the proper way to go and what we'll be working towards.

Regarding lightning arrows, I don't foresee it needing a change. Yes, every attack can cause a stun, but its not a 100% chance each time, the stun only lasts for 3 seconds, and its single target.

[hallucin8]

Trying to think of stun/mezz abilities that cause me grief: Chain Lightning is a killer! I think I read something, somewhere that it is to be changed so it doesn't indefinitely bounce between players, so assuming this applies to all mobs who have it, then that's a huge help. I believe that changing Paralyzing Gaze and Trepidation appropriately (ie. drastically reducing their timer, or substantially increasing their recycle, or simply making them single target) will go a long way to helping.

A short immunity following being mezzed/stunned/rooted would probably do more good than all other suggestions, simply because there are so many variables as to WHY a mob is to be stunned/mezzed/rooted. I think the WHY is the hidden issue. Some mobs stun us, so we like to make sure they can't, either by stunning/mezzing them, or by killing them very quickly. Some mobs do obscene amounts of damage, hence why they NEED to be stunned; think of it as damage mitigation, if we can longer stun them we need other ways to counteract this, either better heals, better armor, more evasion, or dropping their DPS.

In my experience, mezzes like Spellbind and its area counterpart are excellent for crowd control and break after being hit once. They are necessary since so many mobs are social. We NEED a way to hold back the swarms of enemies. Stuns are excellent for creating a short reprieve from being wailed on, giving precious moments to heal/rez/buff and use epic abilities/spells since they often take a long time to cast.

I think Spellbind/Area Spellbind should remain as they were, AND NO LINKED TIMER! Since Area Spellbind is not masterable, that only penalises Sorcerers. And it's not uncommon to miss with Area Spellbind, anyway. Adjust their timers/recycle if you must, but don't link them please.

In the end, the only major concern I personally have, is if Epic mobs cannot be stunned. Reklar is ridiculously hard as it is. Death points are virtually unavoidable. With Resurrection on a 1 miner timer now, I find myself more often in situations where group members have to twiddle their thumbs in wait... As you've pointed out Amon, it's no fun dieing due to perma-stun and it's no fun waiting to be rezzed either.

Please be very careful with what you change. Stuns/mezzes are part of our strategies, small changes can have very drastic impacts. As I've recently discovered SoG and Valkor each have Indomitable granting them obscene evasion (intended or otherwise?), resulting in the entire group missing while it is active. To top it off, Valkor seems buggy and has a few times now, had this ability active permanently. Please use the kid gloves with any changes :D

Happy hunting, see yas Istaria :)

[Cilok]

Just to add to monsters that stun too frequently: werewolves (using Ripclaw). I found that with just 2 werewolves attacking you (in my case both were Greater Werewolves on Balit's Island, too much to handle on my own), they can effectively prevent you from recalling or doing enough damage to kill either one before you die.

[AmonGwareth]

Thank you for the feedback so far on this. I think I've worked most of these as well as others for the next update.

[terrox]

thanks Amon for the reply . i thought fix was live already

[starlight]

A little off topic but is there any ETA on when this blight patch is going to live

[Northwind]

Bit late here, but Bind weapons ability used by Bloodskulk Spearfishers was looked at?
It acts like a stun if i recall correctly (by preventing the target to act in any way, except moving) and Spearfishers are very social. So it is not uncommon to be attacked by more than 4 of them which gives little to no chance to survive while binded. Dragons have the opportunity to fly out of the combat, but bipeds don't have this luxury

[AmonGwareth]

Bit late here, but Bind weapons ability used by Bloodskulk Spearfishers was looked at?
It acts like a stun if i recall correctly (by preventing the target to act in any way, except moving) and Spearfishers are very social. So it is not uncommon to be attacked by more than 4 of them which gives little to no chance to survive while binded. Dragons have the opportunity to fly out of the combat, but bipeds don't have this luxury

Unfortunately the ability they use is the actual one also used by the Spearman school so I can't just alter it. But I'll look into what can be done with it.

A little off topic but is there any ETA on when this blight patch is going to live

No ETAs.